600 yd. practice at 100 yards????

[jamesdmock]

Although not ideal, here is my range that is used to test 600 yard loads. For my Dasher, I have found that a load of 32.8 gr. of Varget pushing a 105 Bart RBT at ~ 2970 and zeroed ~ 11.5 MOA high at 100 will get me close at 600 yards. Good shooting...James

 

[nbkky71]

If you don't have access to a full-course range, that can be a handy trick. I remember using the old 50yd "thermometer" targets for getting a rough 600yd zero on my M1A

 

[Liven The Dream]

100 yard test , the bullet does not really start to work after 200 yards.
I word like to known how this works out for you ?
I shoot long range and try to test a 200 and 300 when possible.
Like your set up.
Don

 

[savagedasher]

100 yard test , the bullet does not really start to work after 200 yards.
I word like to known how this works out for you ?
I shoot long range and try to test a 200 and 300 when possible.
Like your set up.
Don

What do you mean work? Larry

 

[JEFFPPC]

100 yard test , the bullet does not really start to work after 200 yards.
I word like to known how this works out for you ?
I shoot long range and try to test a 200 and 300 when possible.
Like your set up.
Don

Don, not sure what you mean "the bullet does not start to work until after 200yd"..I shoot competition to 1000 yds and do all my work at 100 yds. If they shoot in bughole at 100 yds I feel I am good to go regardless of the range.

 

[Liven The Dream]

What do you mean work? Larry

Work , the bullets of today are designed to stabilizes at a longer distance , bolt tail and HB more so.
In 90% of loads tested at 100 ( very good groups ) will not produce the same groups at 200 or 300 .

 

[savagedasher]

Work , the bullets of today are designed to stabilizes at a longer distance , bolt tail and HB more so.
In 90% of loads tested at 100 ( very good groups ) will not produce the same groups at 200 or 300 .

I hope my bullets are designer that way .
With a good tune they should be stabilized at 50 yards That is what a tuner does .
Larry

 

[JEFFPPC]

Work , the bullets of today are designed to stabilizes at a longer distance , bolt tail and HB more so.
In 90% of loads tested at 100 ( very good groups ) will not produce the same groups at 200 or 300 .

Don, I think your theory is faulty. Maybe you need to be working with better bullets?

 

[JEFFPPC]

Don, I think your theory is faulty. Maybe you need to be working with better bullets?

 

[dragman]

I have seen stuff happen both ways. I know guns that shoot great at 100 and not great at longer. I have had guns that would only shoot 3/4" at 100 and would shoot under 5" at 1000. I like to do 90% of my development at 100 yards getting it almost perfect then do all my tweaking seating depth, neck tension, etc at the longest range it's intended for.

 

[jamesdmock]

Work , the bullets of today are designed to stabilizes at a longer distance , bolt tail and HB more so.
In 90% of loads tested at 100 ( very good groups ) will not produce the same groups at 200 or 300 .

IMO a bullet that won't group at 100 yards cannot suddenly "get well" and group at 500, 600, or 1000 yards. What force is applied to a bullet to correct the 100 yard dispersion. James

 

[JEFFPPC]

When bullets go through the speed of sound and then come back down out of the speed of sound they tend to wobble. Around the end of the WW1 time frame the US Army Artillery folks came up with the idea that putting a boat tail at the base of artillery shells would help the long range accuracy by damping the effect of the shells going into and back out of the speed of sound. This was then advanced to keeping rifle bullets more stable at long range. I have read that the idea has never really been proven or disproven. The idea that a projectile becomes more stable the farther it flies and the slower it goes is something that makes no sense to me .

 

[JEFFPPC]

I have seen stuff happen both ways. I know guns that shoot great at 100 and not great at longer. I have had guns that would only shoot 3/4" at 100 and would shoot under 5" at 1000. I like to do 90% of my development at 100 yards getting it almost perfect then do all my tweaking seating depth, neck tension, etc at the longest range it's intended for.

Dragman, I don't think the accuracy effect is absolutely linear as the distance increases. A .222 with a 50 gr bullet may shoot into .1 at 100yds but it is not going to shoot into 1.0 at 1000. A smoked .300WSM may not shoot great at 100 but group well at 1000 due to less influence from conditions. Are you ready for Ridgeway?

 

[jamesdmock]

In the above two photos, I developed the load at 100 yards and shot the load in competition at 600 and 300 yards respectfully. The 600 yard target was shot with a 6mm Dasher w/ 105 gr. Bart's RBT and the bottom with a 6mm PPC and Bart's 68 gr. BT. Both loads shot very well at 100 and at 600 and 300. I know that this is anecdotal, but I will continue to develop loads at 100 yards....since that is what is available to me. Good shooting...James

 

[dragman]

Dragman, I don't think the accuracy effect is absolutely linear as the distance increases. A .222 with a 50 gr bullet may shoot into .1 at 100yds but it is not going to shoot into 1.0 at 1000. A smoked .300WSM may not shoot great at 100 but group well at 1000 due to less influence from conditions. Are you ready for Ridgeway?

Not as ready as a should be, Looks like I will be fire forming for first match as I can't find time lately.

I think it's not just about being linear - I hear what your saying but it's a little more complicated than that. I have had guns shoot in the .1's at 100 but couldn't produce sub 5" groups at 1000 with ideal conditions it just wouldn't happen. and I have had guns like I said shoot .750 at 100 and shoot tighter sub 5" at 1000. it has a lot to do with harmonics of the guns speeds, sweet spots etc. and sometimes just the old WTF gun! I had a 6.5X284 that shot in the 1's at 100 and I never got a group under 1" at 200, but I did shoot multiple groups at 500 that where under 2" it was a WTF gun! doesn't add up.

 

[johara1]

Work , the bullets of today are designed to stabilizes at a longer distance , bolt tail and HB more so.
In 90% of loads tested at 100 ( very good groups ) will not produce the same groups at 200 or 300 .

At 100 you can see the conditions with wind flags, a 1 mph wind change at 1000 can not be seen and how can you tune what you can't see? It can move the bullet up to 5" you need to be in a location like they have in Montana where the conditions hold to do this. Today was one where sub .1 groups are almost impossible to get holding the same point of aim due to the switching conditions at 100 so how would you tune at 1000 ? Bullets are more effected by wind up close when they are unstable, get one that is asleep when it comes out of the barrel is the one you are hunting for. You are right with one point, groups at 100 will be smaller than at 200 and 300 and they will be smaller than 600 and they will be smaller than 1000. It is a cone of dispersion. A sub .1 group at 100 with low single digit ES will be competitive at 1000 if you can shoot them in the same condition, that is the key, Knowing when to yank the trigger and knowing where the wind moves the bullet the most. A good barrel will make it easier along with good bullets...... but you still have to do your part..... Jim

 

[Ned Ludd]

Work , the bullets of today are designed to stabilizes at a longer distance , bolt tail and HB more so.
In 90% of loads tested at 100 ( very good groups ) will not produce the same groups at 200 or 300 .

This has not been my experience. Loads tested at 100 yd behave exactly as would be predicted by external ballistics at longer distances, especially at short distances such as 200 or 300 yd. I do not observe any sudden and major change in the external ballistics of a load tuned at 100 yd as compared to any other distance that I can shoot targets for measurement purposes. Many people don't have access to a 1000 yd practice range, and I am no exception. So for distances greater than ~ 600 yd, I can only infer from my scores in competition that the 100 yd tuned-load is working just fine.

There are many members here that are advocates of testing only at the distance you intend to shoot. I am not one of them. The particular shooting discipline may have some influence on that. That is fine and everyone should test the way they feel is best for them. But as Jim pointed out, the degree of difficulty and the number of variables involved in shooting (testing) at 1000 yd go up exponentially, not simply in a linear manner with respect to distance. As a result, it is simple mathematics that interpretation of the results of shooting at longer distances is also far more difficult.

Without a doubt, there are those that follow the test/shoot at the same distance approach that have obtained excellent results. However, I think for many shooters that may not have an extensive level of past experience on which to draw will generally be better off testing at a distance at which they can reliably interpret the results of any actual changes made in the load. That will facilitate interpreting changes in the load, rather than what the wind might have been doing.

 

[Liven The Dream]

Very Good !!

Gentlemen

 

[dickn52]

100 yard test , the bullet does not really start to work after 200 yards.
I word like to known how this works out for you ?
I shoot long range and try to test a 200 and 300 when possible.
Like your set up.
Don

That should be the reason he's 11.5 MOA high on the 100 yard target. It's confusing to me too and I was sure he would be all messed up. BUT if you shoot a lesser distance, then you need to reference your ballistic software to adjust for the drop at whatever range your shooting for sighting.

 

[dmoran]

At 100 you can see the conditions with wind flags, a 1 mph wind change at 1000 can not be seen and how can you tune what you can't see? It can move the bullet up to 5" you need to be in a location like they have in Montana where the conditions hold to do this. Today was one where sub .1 groups are almost impossible to get holding the same point of aim due to the switching conditions at 100 so how would you tune at 1000 ? Bullets are more effected by wind up close when they are unstable, get one that is asleep when it comes out of the barrel is the one you are hunting for. You are right with one point, groups at 100 will be smaller than at 200 and 300 and they will be smaller than 600 and they will be smaller than 1000. It is a cone of dispersion. A sub .1 group at 100 with low single digit ES will be competitive at 1000 if you can shoot them in the same condition, that is the key, Knowing when to yank the trigger and knowing where the wind moves the bullet the most. A good barrel will make it easier along with good bullets...... but you still have to do your part..... Jim

Jim -
Testing/tuning at 600/1000-yds pretty much boils down to the right time(s) of day to do it.
Sunup and/or sundown are opportune times most every where (even here in windy ND...lol). I also find steady wind, like can be common of some late afternoons to prove out very well, and at times even better then loads tuned in no wind.

I've never said 100yd doesn't work, but find and see that many times what works at 100 doesn't always hold true at 600/1000. See it often where someone shows up at a match figuring there good to go from what they recently tuned at 100yd, and not fair well. Some times they hit it good, but other times they miss it bad. At the same time, the ones who tune or final tune at 600/1000 seem to stay on top better and over longer periods of times, and don't struggle so bad when it isn't shinning.

Your Harry Jones "honey hole" ranks right up there with Missoula (and quite possibly be even better).
Tom and Richard said after traveling to Cool Acres that it will rial Missoula. But no matter, we still have to beat the competition at any range in any conditions, no matter if it takes 2" or 10" groups to do it. Over the years, some of my best loads had "wind tolerance" built into them, because I final tuned them in wind !.!.!

In the end.... Each to our own
Donovan