Neck sizing or FL?
- Thread starter Intell
- Start date
Grimstod
Machinist, Designer, and Shooter.
My experience with FL vs Neck sizing went like this. I was young reading all the books I could get my hands on. Had a neck sizer for almost everything I shot because that is what all the media was raging about. Then the IBS and four time world record holder Bill Goad agreed to mentor me. I remember on the phone he told me he FL sized everything. I was like "what? does this guy really know his stuf?f". Well turns out he did! Now that I know how to properly FL size it is all I do. My neck sizers collect dust. The results are much better as far as accuracy goes in FL sizing. Thank you Bill Goad for helping me turn to the light and FL size the right way.
Just my personal testimony. Hope this helps.
Just my personal testimony. Hope this helps.
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I will assume he did not neck size the case with a neck sizing die. I have neck sizing dies, I do not use them but I have them just in case. For years and yeas I have use a feeler gage when adjusting the die to adjust the case. The feeler gage gives me 5 options between full length sizing and the beginning of neck sizing. I am the fan of getting all the use out of a die I can before I start grinding on the top of the shell holder and or bottom of the die.
F. Guffey
Grimstod
Machinist, Designer, and Shooter.
Opps typo. Meant FL sized. Sorry.
And then there is that saying about bench resters and full length sizing, there are claims they have been doing it for years and then there are those bench resters that have their favorite die maker, reamer maker and gun builder and they send 5 fired cases to someone that is the greatest die maker in the world and I say; "WHAT! ?" What does it mean when claim they full length sized their cases?
F. Guffey
F. Guffey
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Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
At least 4 1k world records have been set at Deep Creek in the last few years using $75 Harrell's dies. Mr. Guffey, you have convinced me you don't know half of what you think you do. Constantly talking in circles and answering questions with questions does not make you look intelligent. Quite the opposite.
It means they are really sizing the case everywhere. Might only be .001 but they are sizing it. Personally I like more sizing and I size all the way to the extractor groove. Matt
FYI.......It is Benchrest Competitors.....capital B. There is a difference.....huge difference. There are those that shoot against themselves only on days with ideal conditions with no distractions what-so-ever on their flanks- those guys are benchresters. The hardcore Benchrest Competitor frequents registered matches every other weekend where shots are fired in a specified time frame under whatever mother nature dishes out for conditions alongside like-minded competitors whose muzzle blast could throw your shot if doubled on IF your rest set-up is not optimum. Every shot on the record target is accounted for and scored officially. There are no mulligans in Benchrest. Another obstacle Benchrest Competitors must overcome is to stay mentally focused amid all the trash talk from the reloading area. Competition breeds excellence.
And......only benchresters still neck size.
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So Benchresters full length size with a die that is the same size as their chamber made with the same reamer. I get that but if you are using an "off the shelf" die, and full length sizing, the cases are considerably different than the chamber they are fired in. Since most shooters don't spend the money on a custom barrel and die there are other ways to get a better fit than full length sizing with "off the shelf" dies. (without spending the money for custom dies)
Nope. A seater die can be made with a chambering reamer, but a reamer for a sizing die has to be made smaller than the chamber dimensions.
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SheepDog, it always happens in the middle of a forum question about sizing a case, nothing has been said about bench resters or maximum accuracy; but inevitably a member will claim bench resters have been full length size and they will include that boring part about doing it for many years. I believe it is a silly piece of information because they never compare the full length sized case with the chamber. If there was any truth in the statement and the chamber was SAAMI length and the die was a full length sizing die there would be .005" clearance between the shoulder of the chamber and the shoulder of the case, I am the fan of cutting down on all that case travel meaning I can do a better job of sizing a case than the bench rester or there is little value in the statement; "bench resters full length size their cases".
F. Guffey
F. Guffey
Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
So you are making the claim that the guys who drive innovation and set world records aren't even capable of knowing how much they are sizing a case? You are so far behind the curve... your talking reloading 101. You can buy Hornady shoulder comparators at bass pro shops for Christ sake, lol! You know, so you can measure how much you BUMPED the shoulder
It may come as a shock to you, but many of today's competition cartridges have no SAAMI specs......such as 6 PPC (CIP speced) 30 BR, 6.5 x 284 (CIP), 6 Dasher to name some popular ones. My goodness, how do these ignorant benchresters shoot tens of thousands of these rounds every year and not blow themselves up without any authority warranting their safe use?
I, am a fan of living on the WILD side !!.........and then there are those who are stuck in the '70's fearful of embracing all this new technology being tested and practiced by those dastardly dudes ( and dudettes
) -the Benchrest crowd.
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I try to size as little as possible with as little as shoulder bump as needed.
Why over work the brass by FL sizing when not needed. It will eventually need FL sized but, I dont do it until its needed due to harder bolt closing. It works for me so, I am sticking to it.
The RCBS precision mic is a fantastic tool in this instance and well worth the money to determine shoulder set back/bump.
Why over work the brass by FL sizing when not needed. It will eventually need FL sized but, I dont do it until its needed due to harder bolt closing. It works for me so, I am sticking to it.
The RCBS precision mic is a fantastic tool in this instance and well worth the money to determine shoulder set back/bump.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
No one said that any FL dies were made with rifle chamber reamers. To make a case even a little bit smaller, the die has to be smaller than the chamber that the case was fired in. One way that works for unturned necks in factory chambers is to do a two stage sizing process. First neck size with a Lee Collet die (not just any neck die, but this specific one) and then use a body die set for the proper amount of shoulder bump. I have suggested this approach to several shooters and they all have reported excellent results. Another approach, that can improve the results with one piece FL dies is to remove the expander and after the case is sized use an expander mandrel and die to expand the neck as a separate step. The trick is that the necks need to be well lubricated and you need to pay a lot of attention to how much effort is required to operate the press handle. You want to keep this to a minimum even if this requires stopping, backing up and going again more than once on a single case. Excessive push or or pull while expanding is the main cause of runout when using typical one piece dies.
First off I bet there is not a chamber at SAMMI specs,in a benchest rifle. They are held at minimum and not over minimum like a factory chamber.
I am a fan of plenty of sizing. I bump my WSM cases at least .005. I am also a fan of shooting new brass in a match. It is small and shoots great at 1000 yards. I won Nationals and shot record aggregates Fireforming brass. Matt
“Excessive push or or pull while expanding is the main cause of runout when using typical one piece dies.”
I neck turn new brass that’ll get fired in regular ol’ factory cut chambers, largely practice for the day when I own real need to neck turn, and I’d rather not be destroying Lapua during the ‘learn’.
While true the smaller OD turned necks fired in fat factory chambers and resized in production FL dies is expanded even more then sized back down even more than would be unturned necks, it’s also true that the thinner wall turned neck ID is left larger so then gets expanded that much less when it’s passed over the same OD expander ball or mandrel.
I neck turn new brass that’ll get fired in regular ol’ factory cut chambers, largely practice for the day when I own real need to neck turn, and I’d rather not be destroying Lapua during the ‘learn’.
While true the smaller OD turned necks fired in fat factory chambers and resized in production FL dies is expanded even more then sized back down even more than would be unturned necks, it’s also true that the thinner wall turned neck ID is left larger so then gets expanded that much less when it’s passed over the same OD expander ball or mandrel.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
All true, but the additional working of necks can be detrimental to case life, which might be worthwhile if a measurable increase in accuracy had been achieved from turning for factory chambers. In the past, working with one piece dies, and knowing a lot less than I currently do, I did not find this to be the case.
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