Any luck with 195gn (or 197gn) 7MMs in F class?

[TZaun]

I have a couple of friends that use them (the 195's) very successfully! I have had trouble with the 195's as well as the 183's. The reason(s) have befuddled me. The bullets themselves seem GREAT as far as being consistent goes. I don't understand why I can't get them to shoot. I have tried NUMEROUS powders and seating depths to no avail. I have shot them out of both 1-8.3 and 1-8.5. I am at a loss.

Ben, have you tried them with the H4831SC yet? If not, try ~58.6 gr. to get ~2860 fps. When mine finally started to shoot good is when I switched to a faster burning powder. H1000 gave me ok groups but horrible ES. IMR 7977 was really bad all around. IMR 7828 gave me great ES but I just couldn't shrink the groups down. N165 was so-so. I have since gotten my hands on some RL-23. Wouldn't mind trying that one since you have great luck with it behind the 180 in the 7SAUM.

 

[ShootDots]

Ben, have you tried them with the H4831SC yet? If not, try ~58.6 gr. to get ~2860 fps. When mine finally started to shoot good is when I switched to a faster burning powder. H1000 gave me ok groups but horrible ES. IMR 7977 was really bad all around. IMR 7828 gave me great ES but I just couldn't shrink the groups down. N165 was so-so. I have since gotten my hands on some RL-23. Wouldn't mind trying that one since you have great luck with it behind the 180 in the 7SAUM.

I have tried BOTH the 195's and the 183's with H4831SC, VV N165, IMR 7828 and H1000. I have had zero luck with either. I have a good friend that has had GREAT luck in his .280AI with the 183's. Tom Holbrook has had several rifles he has built shoot well with the 195's. It appears that some barrels like them and others (maybe a majority) can't get them to shoot. I can't figure out why. If I could get the 183's to shoot like my 180 Hybrids at the same speed, I would not have a need or desire to shoot the 195's.. So far they have escaped my ability to get them to shoot well.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I would try another lot of bullets. They seem to do well .015" off.

 

[Kyle Schultz]

I'm VERY happy with the 183 SMK in my 7-300WSM. Using H1000 powder. Bullets seated .004" off the lands. 8.3 tw Bartlein 5R. 32". Flying 2885 fps.

Falconpilot, who was one of the early adopters, reported best accuracy in his .284W anywhere from 0.005" into the lands to 0.005" off the lands.

I have not tested the 197 SMK (waiting for 8 tw barrel) and my initial testing of the Berger 195EOL was positive though I never invested the barrel life to work up a match load because of concerns about the thin jacket.

 

[Fulvio]

In the lot I am using, the 195 shows a lot of wrinkles and some are overlapping, leaving an uneven surface. I had to hand select each bullet and I have discarded about 25%. The good ones shot well with 53.7 gn of h4831sc in a 284 Win 32" barrel. Maybe one of the reason behind the inconsistent result is related to the manufacturing process. It is hard to extrude the jacket for such a long bullet. This is probably way Berger did not come up with a target version that requires a thicker jacket, making the process even more challenging. I do not believe this bullet is ready for competition unless the manufacturing process gets better.

 

[kvd]

Out of curiosity, I took measurements on thirty four bullets out of a hundred count box (lot number 8532) of 7mm 195 grain EOL Bergers. Attached are the results. The highest values are shaded yellow and the lowest value in each column are shaded blue. I haven’t had the opportunity to measure the Berger 180 grain Hybrids or the 183 grain Sierra Match Kings to see if they display similar extreme spread and sample standard deviation values.


Ken

 

[moondog]

Copper Fouls the barrel after shot strings. If you run them under 2700, your good.
Berger even says they don't recommend them for extended strings of fire.

 

[4ringshooter]

My initial results with the 183s and 195s in my straight 284(Krieger 8.5) have been pretty good so far. Better than the 180 Hybrids even. Both are sub half out to 600 yards with single digit SD's with 4831sc. The freebore I'm using is 0.235". My 4831sc results have been good and I'll be going back to testing with RL26 as well now that I have a solid load to work from.

I'm going to try the 183s, 195s and 197s in my 28 nosler soon as well.

 

[Joe R]

I bought some 195gn Berger 7MMs back when they first came out and now I have a new 8.5" barrel to suit. I have not seen much in here about people using them in F class. Has anyone on here had good success with the 195gn Bergers or 197gn Sierras in F class?

I am using the Berger 195 with good results out to 1K. I push them at 2960-3000 (64.8 grain of H-1000) here in Houston. However, for some unknown reason (to me) that same load seems to have speeded up to ~3140 in Phoenix (20 1/2 MOA). Then I did get exploding bullets during each relay. Once at 600 yards and it got worse at 800-1K yards (4-5). When I got back to Houston the same ammo gave me ~2980 (22 1/2 MOA) on my Labradar.

I have since tried the Sierra 197s, but the same 64.8 of H-1000 gave me ~2940 (nowhere near the node) and you can see the results on the target.

I haven't been able to play with the 197s since, but I am hopeful that, once I increase the speed another 30-50 fps, things will work out.

Joe

 

[Joe R]

Out of curiosity, I took measurements on thirty four bullets out of a hundred count box (lot number 8532) of 7mm 195 grain EOL Bergers. Attached are the results. The highest values are shaded yellow and the lowest value in each column are shaded blue. I haven’t had the opportunity to measure the Berger 180 grain Hybrids or the 183 grain Sierra Match Kings to see if they display similar extreme spread and sample standard deviation values.


Ken

Ken,
FWIW I only measure the base to ogive. On my batch of Berger 195s my difference from min to max was 0.0075, that's from sorting 1,000. Yes, I did have a few outliers but they were less than 10. On the Sierra 197s the difference between min and max was 0.006, but I've only sorted 100.

The interesting thing is that even though the Sierra were 40-50K longer overall, the base to ogive difference between the Bergers and the Sierras was only 3-5K.

Joe

 

[338 Mollett]

I'm having a tough time with the 195's and 197's also!Shooting a 8.25 tw in a 270 wsm necked up.What got my BP up when I tried the test lot of 195's they shot great .The production lot I might as well have loaded them backwards.

 

[TZaun]

I'm having a tough time with the 195's and 197's also!Shooting a 8.25 tw in a 270 wsm necked up.What got my BP up when I tried the test lot of 195's they shot great .The production lot I might as well have loaded them backwards.

I finally had to give up on the 195 dream. I just can't get them to shoot consistently good. One day they shoot pretty good, the next, not so good. They are certainly accurate enough for long range hunting, if you're into that. I guess that's what they're built for. I'm moving on to the 180s..............

 

[Delfuego]

Copper Fouls the barrel after shot strings. If you run them under 2700, your good.
Berger even says they don't recommend them for extended strings of fire.

What this guy said

 

[kvd]

Ken,
FWIW I only measure the base to ogive. On my batch of Berger 195s my difference from min to max was 0.0075, that's from sorting 1,000. Yes, I did have a few outliers but they were less than 10. On the Sierra 197s the difference between min and max was 0.006, but I've only sorted 100.

The interesting thing is that even though the Sierra were 40-50K longer overall, the base to ogive difference between the Bergers and the Sierras was only 3-5K.

Joe

Joe,

I too found it interesting that the values that could be measured, i.e. base to ogive, back bearing surface to tip, and total bullet length, had very similar and relatively small sample standard deviations. The values that had to be calculated - ogive to tip, base to back bearing surface, and the bearing surface showed the highest sample standard deviations except base to back bearing surface which was the most stable dimension in my admittedly small sample of 195's.
Also of interest was that the longest and shortest bullets in my sample were not that way because of base to ogive differences and that unfortunately, the largest variation was in the ogive to tip dimension - 0.0215 inch.
Perhaps the key to why some have success with the 195's and some do not is that the successful shooters are more in the middle of the optimum bullet seating depth range for their barrels where variations in the ogive to tip distance are somewhat mitigated.
Based on your experience in Phoenix and what others have said concerning long strings of fire, and the fact that these are primarily hunting bullets, the variations in bearing surface may play a role in "finickiness" as well.

Ken

 

[Steveb]

We have been shooting the 190 Matrix bullets here in 1 in 8 twist barrels with very good results. They have a heavier jacket than the Berger's also because these bullets were marketed well before the Berger's and it was found with the thin J4 jackets they also blew up. Switched to a heavier jacket and they work great. However, out of a 284 based case, I question any advantage. You shoot them slower and it doesn't take much velocity wise to make it a wash between the 180 and 190 series bullets.

 

[thomasholbrook43]

I have tried BOTH the 195's and the 183's with H4831SC, VV N165, IMR 7828 and H1000. I have had zero luck with either. I have a good friend that has had GREAT luck in his .280AI with the 183's. Tom Holbrook has had several rifles he has built shoot well with the 195's. It appears that some barrels like them and others (maybe a majority) can't get them to shoot. I can't figure out why. If I could get the 183's to shoot like my 180 Hybrids at the same speed, I would not have a need or desire to shoot the 195's.. So far they have escaped my ability to get them to shoot well.

Ben not sure why everybody is having trouble with the 195's shooting. I have built 9 F-class saums and two hunting saums just for this bullet. So far they all have shoot really well. And whats crazy the same load has worked in all of them. H1000 61.10 grains 8.3 Bartlien barrels. I currently have 900 rounds on the barrels I'm shooting and not a single blow up and the water line is the tightest i have had . Average 198-199 with 10 plus X count at 1000 yards. maybe berger will make target version so we can push them a little harder

 

[ShootDots]

Ben not sure why everybody is having trouble with the 195's shooting. I have built 9 F-class saums and two hunting saums just for this bullet. So far they all have shoot really well. And whats crazy the same load has worked in all of them. H1000 61.10 grains 8.3 Bartlien barrels. I currently have 900 rounds on the barrels I'm shooting and not a single blow up and the water line is the tightest i have had . Average 198-199 with 10 plus X count at 1000 yards. maybe berger will make target version so we can push them a little harder

I have made comments to the effect that you have had GREAT success with them building about 1/2 doz rifles and they ALL shoot. As you know the first barrel you tested for me I still have>>>once this one burns out, it is going on and I will use the load you sent me.

 

[Joe R]

Ben not sure why everybody is having trouble with the 195's shooting. I have built 9 F-class saums and two hunting saums just for this bullet. So far they all have shoot really well. And whats crazy the same load has worked in all of them. H1000 61.10 grains 8.3 Bartlien barrels. I currently have 900 rounds on the barrels I'm shooting and not a single blow up and the water line is the tightest i have had . Average 198-199 with 10 plus X count at 1000 yards. maybe berger will make target version so we can push them a little harder

Thomas,
Your load is golden. Don Diffey shot clean at 600 with it last month using the rifle you built for him.

The problem with the Berger 195s blowing up on me had everything to do with the conditions in Phoenix and the velocity/twist I was using. I was going over 3100 fps.

I had 100 rounds leftover from my Phoenix trip when I got back to Houston. I took those rounds to our range and shot 35 rounds in the row at the 1K yard line. Everyone of them hit the target. In Phoenix I had 1 in 5 "disappear" on me. The other difference is that the same exact ammo that required 20 1/2 MOA of elevation in Phoenix required 22 1/2 in Houston. The increase in velocity was THE issue.

I didn't take my Labradar or Kestrel when I went to Phoenix so I didn't get crucial info on DA. Big lesson learned. That also may be the reason why so many good shooters from Houston seem to struggle in Phoenix.

Next year I'll probably go there a few days early and take all my reloading stuff with me and develop my load there. IMO the Phoenix altitude and low humidity are worlds apart from Houston.

Looks like Sunday's 1K match will be cancelled again, 90% probability of rain. Arrrg.

Joe

 

[thomasholbrook43]

I have made comments to the effect that you have had GREAT success with them building about 1/2 doz rifles and they ALL shoot. As you know the first barrel you tested for me I still have>>>once this one burns out, it is going on and I will use the load you sent me.

Johnny took his SAUM out for first time today. Looks like the same load is holding true. .104 for four shots. thats with only 15 shots down the tube. an right on the money 2865fps. I think i just my have this figured out See you soon and remember bring Lunch money for me!!! LOL

 

[Joe R]

Here's his target that he sent me. Man, he's going to be a terror with that thing.