Plama newbie question

[rap36case]

I am planning on building a rifle as part of the gunsmith program this fall. I have read about Palma rifles and noted small primers on Palma brass. I also read where small primer Palma brass was used to win F/TR with BR4 primer, 43grains Varget, 215gran Berger Hybrid, 30" barrel.

1. Why small primers? Do they allow hotter loads such as 43grains for a heavy bullet?

2. What throat dimensions must one use for these heavy bullets?

3. Do you need a long action and large magazine for this Plama set up?

4. Any problems foreseen with using a Mauser action?

 

[Ned Ludd]

In F-TR, rounds are single-fed manually per the rules, not from a magazine. In fact, it is not uncommon to see F-TR rifles without any bottom mag port at all. If an action that is ported for a magazine is used, you will see people loading single rounds right on top of a seated mag, or they may instead use some type of magazine-follower to facilitate single-feeding. The smaller primer pocket allows more metal in the casehead/webbing area. Palma brass will therefore take higher pressures for more firings than standard .308 brass before the primer pockets begin to fail. Freebores of about .170" or longer are commonly used for Berger's 200 gr bullets. Optimal freebore for the 215s would be longer still, possibly as long as in the .250" range.

 

[rap36case]

In F-TR, rounds are single-fed manually per the rules, not from a magazine. In fact, it is not uncommon to see F-TR rifles without any bottom mag port at all. If an action that is ported for a magazine is used, you will see people loading single rounds right on top of a seated mag, or they may instead use some type of magazine-follower to facilitate single-feeding. The smaller primer pocket allows more metal in the casehead/webbing area. Palma brass will therefore take higher pressures for more firings than standard .308 brass before the primer pockets begin to fail. Freebores of about .170" or longer are commonly used for Berger's 200 gr bullets. Optimal freebore for the 215s would be longer still, possibly as long as in the .250" range.

Thank you for the quick response!
Since I have to use a mauser action, I simply need to make it as good as possible. Including a magazine adds weight. I assume the rifle has to be under 18LBS?
It makes good sense then to use Plama brass for 43 grains of Varget. Thank you for that insight.
I have seen seating depth reported as 0.005 to 0.015 off the lands. This will have to be tailored to the rifle.
How does one determine optimal freebore?
thanks again1

 

[dcali]

I would advise finding a way to not use a Mauser if Palma or F class is the aim.

 

[shortgrass]

MIl surp or commercial Mauser '98s make fine sporters but there are much better choices for building a competition rifle.

 

[rkittine]

Am I mistaken or isn't Palma shot with 155 Grain projectiles?

Bob

 

[Erud]

Am I mistaken or isn't Palma shot with 155 Grain projectiles?

Bob

It should be, but it isn't actually in the NRA rules for Palma in the US, and many American shooters shoot heavy bullets. International Palma competition does require less than 156 grain bullets for .308. Maybe someday the NRA rules will catch up to the rest of the world.

 

[Ggmac]

He probably has to use a Mauser per the instructor . If not USE SOMETHING ELSE !

 

[Ron Blain]

Basics of Palma Shooting in the USA is a good read on the subject. While I agree a Mauser Action would not be my first choice, it won't hurt as an entry level rifle. I think anyone who has shot Palma Match will tell you it's all about the wind, or more like read the wind. No, I am not a Palma type, my idea of long range anymore is 500 yards in the prone. Not even sure I can see 1,000 yards anymore. Unless as part of a course you have to use the Mauser action I would consider a Remington or Winchester action and build your entry level rifle around that.

Large vs. Small Flash Holes in .308 Win Brass is another read with some thoughts on the small primer use in the .308. I have tried the small primer .308 and after several primer attempts never really found much difference. Since I have the brass maybe this summer I'll chase that a little more.

Ron

 

[Ned Ludd]

I'd read through the Palma Basics link Ron provided. As far as I a tell, there is no weight limit, barrel length limit, or anything else; it only has to be chambered in .223 or .308. For obvious sighting reasons, a minimum length barrel would be necessary to get both a good sight radius and reasonable velocity from your bullet of choice. The thing I would be concerned about given your original post is the 215 bullet weight. In F-TR, we can use an 18.18 lb (8.25 kg) rifle/scope/bipod combination, which is supported front and rear. Even under those conditions, some people find the recoil of the 215s simply too much to effectively manage. In an unsupported rifle, I can't imagine it would get any better. I also don't imagine having to manually support an 18+ lb rifle is going to be everyone's cup of tea. Spend some time and find out what specifications are commonly in use by people winning matches. If you are going to build a Palma rifle, you might as well build one that is compatible with any rules and will be as competitive as possible, given the limitations you are working with, such as the Mauser action.

In terms of determining optimal freebore for seating the 215s, there are several ways to go about it. I simply subtracted the [published] base to ogive length of the 200.20X from that of the 215 Hybrid (difference = 0.066"), and added that to the .180" freebore I'm using with the 200.20X, to get 0.246", or about .250" as I mentioned above. There is some play to these numbers, I'm sure you could use any freebore in between about .200" and .250" and it would probably work just fine. However, the safest thing to do is simply seat some 215s in .308 brass to where you want them, then measure CBTO. Alternatively, I'm sure there are a few people here using the 215s in F-TR or F-Open, any one of them can tell you what freebore they're using and where the boattail/bearing surface is positioned in the neck at their optimal seating depth.

 

[Loggins J]

Am I mistaken or isn't Palma shot with 155 Grain projectiles?

Bob

Yes 156 or less in a 308 is palma primers can be small or large you can shoot match class and use any caliber any weight

 

[Michael C]

If you are going to actually shoot Palma with irons and a sling, shoot 155 SMK or Bergers. Recoil will be more manageable and easy to tune. Just put 47g of Varget under either bullet jumping 30thou and learn trigger control and how to read the wind. I shoot a lot of Palma with great shooters and international guys... those Brits have ugly rifles that were worn out 20 years ago and still kick our asses shooting factory rounds they are issued that are loaded with 155 SMK. No way would I want to shoot 215's in a sling.
If you go with 155's, use either a 95 or 2011 fullbore reamer.

 

[rap36case]

Basics of Palma Shooting in the USA is a good read on the subject. While I agree a Mauser Action would not be my first choice, it won't hurt as an entry level rifle. I think anyone who has shot Palma Match will tell you it's all about the wind, or more like read the wind. No, I am not a Palma type, my idea of long range anymore is 500 yards in the prone. Not even sure I can see 1,000 yards anymore. Unless as part of a course you have to use the Mauser action I would consider a Remington or Winchester action and build your entry level rifle around that.

Large vs. Small Flash Holes in .308 Win Brass is another read with some thoughts on the small primer use in the .308. I have tried the small primer .308 and after several primer attempts never really found much difference. Since I have the brass maybe this summer I'll chase that a little more.

Ron

I greatly appreciate the citation for this information! Yes, the large ring 98 Mauser action and bottom metal is required for class project. After discussion with instructor, I will create this rifle in 7 Mauser.

I have a Shilen built rifle that I will re-barrel at a later date with 1 to 9 twist and throated for the 215 Hybrid. Tests so far suggest I can obtain 2550fps muzzle, with estimated 1000yard terminal of 1489fps. There is a 1 mile range about an hour and half from me, and I will do me long range testing there.

 

[rap36case]

I'd read through the Palma Basics link Ron provided. As far as I a tell, there is no weight limit, barrel length limit, or anything else; it only has to be chambered in .223 or .308. For obvious sighting reasons, a minimum length barrel would be necessary to get both a good sight radius and reasonable velocity from your bullet of choice. The thing I would be concerned about given your original post is the 215 bullet weight. In F-TR, we can use an 18.18 lb (8.25 kg) rifle/scope/bipod combination, which is supported front and rear. Even under those conditions, some people find the recoil of the 215s simply too much to effectively manage. In an unsupported rifle, I can't imagine it would get any better. I also don't imagine having to manually support an 18+ lb rifle is going to be everyone's cup of tea. Spend some time and find out what specifications are commonly in use by people winning matches. If you are going to build a Palma rifle, you might as well build one that is compatible with any rules and will be as competitive as possible, given the limitations you are working with, such as the Mauser action.

In terms of determining optimal freebore for seating the 215s, there are several ways to go about it. I simply subtracted the [published] base to ogive length of the 200.20X from that of the 215 Hybrid (difference = 0.066"), and added that to the .180" freebore I'm using with the 200.20X, to get 0.246", or about .250" as I mentioned above. There is some play to these numbers, I'm sure you could use any freebore in between about .200" and .250" and it would probably work just fine. However, the safest thing to do is simply seat some 215s in .308 brass to where you want them, then measure CBTO. Alternatively, I'm sure there are a few people here using the 215s in F-TR or F-Open, any one of them can tell you what freebore they're using and where the boattail/bearing surface is positioned in the neck at their optimal seating depth.

Thankyou for your detailed response! I have recently participated in an Appleseed event, and 18LBS with a long barrel would be a bit much for sling positions. I will have to build an AR as a required school project. I am thinking an AR10 in 308 with the goal of 0.5MOA or better, off the bench. This may not comply with Palma or CMP military rifle requirements.

Yes, I want to learn all about the optimal rifle designs for each event. I feel if I participate, I will better learn what works for each potential customer. As a gunsmith, I want to deliver a product that more than satisfies wants and needs.