Redding Competition seating die problem/ question

[KMart]

What is the neck diameter of a case fired in your chamber?

 

[CH Luke]

What is the neck diameter of a case fired in your chamber?

Second firings were .341 to .342 at the mouth. Mid neck were all .342. The neck near the shoulder .343.

 

['Freak]

The chamber’s neck [diameter] is too skinny to be shootin’ it with brass having a neck wall thickness avg. of ~ .0175”.

 

[John Russell]

The chamber’s neck is too skinny to be shootin’ it with brass having a neck wall thickness avg. of ~ .0175”.

The chamber neck is not too skinny, the neck is too thick, and needs to be turned so the neck wall is 0.015" (or less).

 

[CH Luke]

The chamber’s neck is too skinny to be shootin’ it with brass having a neck wall thickness avg. of ~ .0175”.

That's what I've been thinking though I've searched and searched without finding any references to reloaders turning necks to get them to fit. This leaves me to think there is something else I'm doing that is causing what appears to be a somewhat unique migration of brass in to the neck thickness.

Such as over annealing (possible but I don't think likely - I will test this).

 

[CH Luke]

The chamber neck is not too skinny, the neck is too thick, and needs to be turned so the neck wall is 0.015" (or less).

Thanks John. I am willing to invest in the tools necessary to do this as I see it being very worth doing to get to more than two firings on expensive Lapua brass. Before ordering what's necessary I would feel better hearing confirmation that neck turning to fit a chamber is common practice.

 

[RonAKA]

It is possible I could be over annealing via slightly too high temperatures. I had not heard of this happening elsewhere but what you say seems to make sense. As usual I researched how I anneal and I have done it consistently. On my next two boxes of brass I can apply a test vs control to settle that.

You have said earlier that the new factory brass seats the bullet fine, but your reloads do not. Perhaps you should take some once fired cases, skip the annealing, and see how they seat a bullet as a test.

 

[powderbrake]

All brass was clean inside and out (stainless media), chamfered, trimmed. Carbide expander ball on sizing. 200 Hybrids are tapered boat tails.

Now I'm wondering if 90 minutes in the tumbler mis-shaped the mouth again. Wouldn't think so.

Gonna re-size the failed ones and wipe clean. See if that helps. If not then I will try the old standard seater.

I read where the stainless pins can damage ( roll over ) the case mouth. A tubing micrometer can read this, or you could chamfer the inside of the neck after tumbling.

 

[CH Luke]

You have said earlier that the new factory brass seats the bullet fine, but your reloads do not. Perhaps you should take some once fired cases, skip the annealing, and see how they seat a bullet as a test.

Yes I plan to do that with the two new boxes of brass that I have. Thanks.

 

[CH Luke]

I read where the stainless pins can damage ( roll over ) the case mouth. A tubing micrometer can read this, or you could chamfer the inside of the neck after tumbling.

Good idea. Will do. Thanks.

 

[CH Luke]

Thanks John. I am willing to invest in the tools necessary to do this as I see it being very worth doing to get to more than two firings on expensive Lapua brass. Before ordering what's necessary I would feel better hearing confirmation that neck turning to fit a chamber is common practice.

Goes to show what a slight difference in how you phrase a Google search will do for you. From a Sinclair posting on neck turning:
Neck turning is done for three basic reasons:
1) To reduce wall thickness on a case so a loaded round will fit in a tight-necked custom chamber.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/GunTech...ning-for-Factory-Rifles-/detail.htm?lid=16135

The one piece left is do the dimensions I've reported sound like a "tight" chamber? No doubt it is custom. My working assumption was based on my gunsmith's statement when he cut this chamber (using a 2013 FTR team reamer) that this was a no turn chamber.

 

[RonAKA]

"Just seated a brand new Lapua Palma. OD is .336 before and .338" after bullet seated."

"Second firings were .341 to .342 at the mouth. Mid neck were all .342. The neck near the shoulder .343."

This suggests to me that the brass in the neck is not too thick, and your chamber neck is not too tight, probably in the 0.342 to 0.344" taper range.

You don't have the problem with new brass, but you have it with two different seating dies after you have annealed. Sure points to the annealing process...

On measurements, it is certainly nice to have an ID micromenter, and a thickness micrometer. However, with a 1/10 thou OD micromenter and a blade vernier you can get the basic measurments. If you measure the bullet (probably will not be exactly 0.308"), the case before seating, and the case after seating, you can easily calculate average neck brass thickness. Also with the vernier gauge, you can check within a thou the thickness of the brass for any gross non uniform thickness.

However, I don't think your problem is with measurements. It is the seating that is deforming the brass. Do you lubricate the ID of the neck? I use powdered graphite to reduce seating force and seating tension.`

 

[CH Luke]

"Just seated a brand new Lapua Palma. OD is .336 before and .338" after bullet seated."

"Second firings were .341 to .342 at the mouth. Mid neck were all .342. The neck near the shoulder .343."

This suggests to me that the brass in the neck is not too thick, and your chamber neck is not too tight, probably in the 0.342 to 0.344" taper range.

You don't have the problem with new brass, but you have it with two different seating dies after you have annealed. Sure points to the annealing process...

On measurements, it is certainly nice to have an ID micromenter, and a thickness micrometer. However, with a 1/10 thou OD micromenter and a blade vernier you can get the basic measurments. If you measure the bullet (probably will not be exactly 0.308"), the case before seating, and the case after seating, you can easily calculate average neck brass thickness. Also with the vernier gauge, you can check within a thou the thickness of the brass for any gross non uniform thickness.

However, I don't think your problem is with measurements. It is the seating that is deforming the brass. Do you lubricate the ID of the neck? I use powdered graphite to reduce seating force and seating tension.`

Yes. I've tried seating both with and without Imperial dry neck lube. Same result.
Also disassembled, cleaned and oiled both seating dies.
Here's what could be an important point that I overlooked. When raising the ram on new and once fired brass the ram travels smoothly all the way through. On twice fired there is point of resistance that "bumps" during travel that isn't there on subsequent re-seating if that bullet. Almost feels like its hitting the leading edge of the brass.
Also, I am using dummy bullets (no primer or powder) and a stripped bolt to check chamber fit.

 

[RonAKA]

Here's what could be an important point that I overlooked. When raising the ram on new and once fired brass the ram travels smoothly all the way through. On twice fired there is point of resistance that "bumps" during travel that isn't there on subsequent re-seating if that bullet. Almost feels like its hitting the leading edge of the brass.

OK. So how does the new brass compare to as fired and after sizing, for overall length?

 

[wapiti25]

Check the dia of your bullets, there was a post that someone found 30 cal Berger bullets that were oversized in dia. They were about .310 or .311.

 

[CH Luke]

Check the dia of your bullets, there was a post that someone found 30 cal Berger bullets that were oversized in dia. They were about .310 or .311.

All .3075 to .3080. Thanks for asking.

 

[CH Luke]

OK. So how does the new brass compare to as fired and after sizing, for overall length?

New Lapua Palma typically 2.006 to 2.007". First firing moves a couple thousandths and after second firing I trim about 25/100 slightly to a standard length of 2.010".

 

[foxguy]

New Lapua Palma typically 2.006 to 2.007". First firing moves a couple thousandths and after second firing I trim about 25/100 slightly to a standard length of 2.010".

After your second firing, annealing, and trimming are you chamfering the inside and outside of the necks before trying to seat another bullet? I suspect you are but just needed to ask?

 

[jlow]

I read where the stainless pins can damage ( roll over ) the case mouth. A tubing micrometer can read this, or you could chamfer the inside of the neck after tumbling.

This is likely your answer

If you over anneal, you will get you necks too soft (describe how you anneal to us). If you combine this with cleaning too vigorously with SS-media (i.e. Too many cases, too long, etc), the tip of the cases mouth will peen, rollover which means it will be much thicker. Combine this with a tight neck chamber, you will get exactly what you see - a loaded round that will not fit a tight neck chamber.

To figure if you are getting peening, run your finger nail along the case neck from the shoulder to the neck opening, a good neck will allow your nail to get to the end and drop off. A peened neck will catch your nail just before it gets to the end...

 

[Rust]

I had a problem with a Redding competition die in .338 RUM a few years back, it shipped with a shorter seating insert rod (NOT the sliding sleeve) than it should have had. Screwing the die further into the press to fully seat the bullet allowed the case mouth to hit the top of the die slightly bulging the case at the neck/shoulder junction.

A call to Redding and a new longer seating insert insert was immediately sent. I also make sure that the while the sliding sleeve may hit the caseholder, the outer body has about a 1/4" to go and that the sliding sleeve still has a little travel left at the top of the ram stroke.

Don't know if I described that accurately.