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Feedback about the Giraud trimmer

msinc said:
You are going to get a sharp, angled to a point. having zero flat at all case mouth with this trimmer. It sure sounds like this is what you do not want. There is no way to change this without spending more money. This is one disadvantage to you. Some guys obviously don't care or feel like it is a problem.
It was touched on previously several times on this thread, but to reiterate...since this type trimmer indexes off of the resized shoulder the end result will only be as accurate as the cases being trimmed were resized. These type trimmers {shoulder indexing} work great if you have a lot of brass to trim because they are fast. If the brass is very consistent in its hardness or anneal and all the cases resize to the dead on headspace you want then they should and will trim up very consistent and be dead on the length you set. When you have a batch of cases that are not consistent and show different headspace length after they are sized then this is exactly what you will see for a finished trim length...inconsistency, because it follows what you have for a resized length.
You are not going to hear anything bad about this device or any other item with a high cost...because once someone has spent money past a certain point they will not admit there are any issues. The spending of money, at least enough of it, causes people to ignore, forget or look past anything that could reflect negatively on what they now own. There have been a few comments to suggest issues with this trimmer, but you notice how they were not presented as problems??? If this thing didn't cost $500.00 no one would have any trouble saying they wished the cutter could be adjusted so it didn't make a straight razor out of the mouth...instead..."it's not a problem, don't know why you cant just get over it like we did." "You can always use your cases to trim your nose hair, where else but here can you get a deal like this???"
You heard how you might have to take the case holder to a "gunsmith" to make one that works....but again, it wasn't presented as any issue at all..."all ya gotta do...". One guy has stated he got the parts to fix the thing BEFORE he even has it in his hands!!!!! $500.00 and a months wait to have to go get more parts to make it work right from somebody else??? Yeah, I cant wait any longer, gotta have one asap!!!!
Click to expand...

WOW msinc,
I'm not sure I've ever seen a post on AS with this much vitriolic, opinionated criticism that attacks and tears down a product and its users without offering any solutions or apologies.

As a user of the Giraud trimmer, I'll be the first to recognize that it is not a perfect product. Does it have issues? Yes. Can those issues be fixed? Yes. Can the manufacturer solve the problems for the user? No. Why? Because he builds the trimmer to comply with factory chambers, it's the only economically feasible approach. However, most of the buyers of that product in all probability have custom chambers with much tighter tolerances and looking for extreme precision. So there is a bit of a disconnect there, but it can easily be remedied.

Regarding all those projections of psychological irrationality: "You are not going to hear anything bad about this device or any other item with a high cost...because once someone has spent money past a certain point they will not admit there are any issues. The spending of money, at least enough of it, causes people to ignore, forget or look past anything that could reflect negatively on what they now own", Well..., I assure you that is your observation, experience or attitude, not mine. I have no problem getting rid of expensive tools that don't perform as represented. I can give you many examples relating just to reloading, not cars, coffee pots, etc... The reason many of us buy the trimmer, in spite of its shortcomings, is very simple, it is better than all of the other alternatives out there.

In conclusion, if you are so clever as to see all these problems instead of cursing the darkness, light a candle. I challenge you to build a better trimmer, and I'll gladly sell my Giraud and buy yours.

Regards,

Joe
 
In response to the negative comments regarding the Giraud trimmer.

1) NO, it doesn't make the end of the case sharp. The setup as received from Giraud cuts a chamfer on the ID and the OD, with a flat on the end,and I did not have to adjust it. If it does, readjust it.
2) I keep my cases associated with a specific rifle, so my case lengths are dead on, so my trim lengths are dead on for that chamber. If the user is mixing brands/guns, or having different resized lengths, he is not operating in the precision reloading area, and the results should be good enough for him.
3) The cutters are adjustable, and once set, will hold their setting. Besides, I have a dedicated cutterhead and shell holder for each caliber I resize, so I never have to adjust.
4) The unit is very fast and repeatable. One at a time, hand cranked trimmers with positive stops are great, but too slow for me.

Rather than negative comments on a product, I suggest some positive suggestions on how to "fix" the problems which the critic believes to exist.
 
Why would I offer solutions or apologies???? I didn't invent, design, market or sell the overpriced thing. Apologize for what??? Having an opinion based on my experience??? Less than zero chance. If some fanboy gets his feelings hurt because I said something that's true he will have to get someone else to blow fairy dust up his skirt and make it all better. If you are so in love with it I sure aint gonna stop you from buying ten more.
"Rather than negative comments"???? The OP ask for feedback: "Any constructive feedback (positive or NEGATIVE) on this trimmer based on actual experience is welcomed." Did you as a fanboy think it automatically meant not to say anything negative about your favorite product???? He wants to hear it, and he has...whether or not you like it or approve is yours to get over...or not.
 
msinc said:
You are going to get a sharp, angled to a point. having zero flat at all case mouth with this trimmer. It sure sounds like this is what you do not want. There is no way to change this without spending more money.
Click to expand...

For a lot less money I can buy the Little Crow Gunworks WFT trimmer, which indexes off the shoulder but cuts square like a conventional trimmer. Sure, I still have to chamfer and deburr separately, but using a Lee lock stud / shell holder and an electric screwdriver to spin cases, I can chamfer, deburr, and steel wool a case in about 10 seconds. Since I never do more than 100 cases at a time, I'm not squandering too much of my allotted lifespan.
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powderbrake said:
1) NO, it doesn't make the end of the case sharp. The setup as received from Giraud cuts a chamfer on the ID and the OD, with a flat on the end,and I did not have to adjust it. If it does, readjust it.
Click to expand...

Not disputing what you said, but others who own and love the Giraud have offered contradictory descriptions. Without quoting verbatim, I gleaned (paraphrasing here) "pointed, yes, but not sharp", "there is no flat left on the end", "the profile of the cut cannot be changed" etc.

Since you say there is a definite flat left on the end, could you possibly post a photo which clearly depicts this? Because here's what a chap over on Snipers Hide forum was pleased to depict. Looks like an effective leather hole punch to these aging eyes:

Giraud-1a.jpg

Here's another photo from AR15.com forum of a Giraud finish:

Giraud-2.jpg

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I have never seen a used Giraud trimmer for sale. Of all the competitive shooters I know that have one, not one regrets their purchase and would not trim any other way after using one.

Like Ferris Bueller said..."It is so choice...I do recommend picking one up if you have the means".
 
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brians356 said:
For a lot less money I can buy the Little Crow Gunworks WFT trimmer, which indexes off the shoulder but cuts square like a conventional trimmer. Sure, I still have to chamfer and deburr separately, but using a Lee lock stud / shell holder and an electric screwdriver to spin cases, I can chamfer, deburr, and steel wool a case in about 10 seconds. Since I never do more than 100 cases at a time, I'm not squandering too much of my allotted lifespan.
-
Click to expand...

Yes, and while I may have upset some big time fans of this machine I will reiterate and if you go back and read my post you will see that there is no accuracy issues with this type shoulder indexing trimmer. None. Maybe I worded it wrong and maybe it's the age old thing of guys getting real defensive when they read anything at all regarding their $500.00 purchase that is less than raving about how great it is.
You can easily get cases trimmed to within .001" with reasonable care and ease. The issue is that this type follows what you already have, so it is only as accurate as your cases are sized for an overall finished length. The WFT is not an exception to this fact.
If all cases are sized the same then they will all trim the same. In fact, you cannot make this type do it wrong, what I mean is that if you have cases all sized to dead zero SAAMI headspace length and the trimmer is set to minimum trim to length then they will all come out dead on. However, if the cases are different headspace length then you will have different finished length, as opposed to the type that indexes off of the case head. Overall is overall with that style and the headspace may vary but the length of the cases will not {if you trim correctly to begin with.}
Shoulder indexing trimmers are really for trimming many, many cases as fast as possible. When I use it I typically resize in excess of 300 cases, check them for headspace and separate out the ones that are not within +.002/-.000 and run them on the trimmer.
I would suggest you give Giraud a call and inquire as to the cutter blade configuration...I have never seen one that didn't cut the mouth to a sharp point, but that don't make it so, by now they could have come up with a different cutter. Others are making this claim.
 
msinc said:
If all cases are sized the same then they will all trim the same. In fact, you cannot make this type do it wrong, what I mean is that if you have cases all sized to dead zero SAAMI headspace length and the trimmer is set to minimum trim to length then they will all come out dead on. However, if the cases are different headspace length then you will have different finished length, as opposed to the type that indexes off of the case head. Overall is overall with that style and the headspace may vary but the length of the cases will not {if you trim correctly to begin with.}
Click to expand...

Ensuring all case OALs all equal to a gnat's arse is really rather pointless, when you really think about it. Does the bullet care if there was .002" more neck wrapped around it when the neck expands during ignition? Has anyone ever proven that having all cases the exact same length to < .001" improves accuracy? I can see making sure they are all the same OAL before weight sorting cases, if someone felt equal case weights is that critical. But once cases are loaded, I never understood how case OAL down to .001" was critical for accuracy.

msinc said:
Shoulder indexing trimmers are really for trimming many, many cases as fast as possible.
Click to expand...

For most guys, probably true. But what struck me immediately was how indexing off the shoulder would improve consistency of shoulder cuts when neck turning (assuming the turner stops on the case mouth). That's main attraction for me anyway.

msinc said:
I would suggest you give Giraud a call and inquire as to the cutter blade configuration...I have never seen one that didn't cut the mouth to a sharp point, but that don't make it so, by now they could have come up with a different cutter. Others are making this claim.
Click to expand...

I have seen one closeup photo of the Giraud cutter online, but it is on a photo bucket site, I can't attach it here. It shows a definite radius, not a point, in the crotch of the Vee, so that would leave a rounded peak rather than a sharp edge. So its not unlikely they have changed the cutter profile at some time.
-
 
 
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lawrence97 said:
I have a giraud and enjoy using it. The only negative is that the trimming ends so quickly that I wish I could use it longer!

If your resizing/shoulder bump is consistent, you will end up with consistent trim length.

As for adjustability when setting up I found it best to use a die lock ring instead of the supplied ring which can't be locked with a set screw like an ordinary die ring.
Click to expand...
That was me when I had the annealer. Loaded 500 cases in the thing and was done. Then it sat for about 3 months waiting for the next batch. I finally realized I didn't need it that much and passed in on to Oregon somewhere. Recently though I had 5 rounds (reloads) that would not chamber. Measuring showed they needed some serious trimming. So the Giraud may be in the works soon.
 
msinc said:
You are going to get a sharp, angled to a point. having zero flat at all case mouth with this trimmer. It sure sounds like this is what you do not want. There is no way to change this without spending more money. This is one disadvantage to you. Some guys obviously don't care or feel like it is a problem.
It was touched on previously several times on this thread, but to reiterate...since this type trimmer indexes off of the resized shoulder the end result will only be as accurate as the cases being trimmed were resized. These type trimmers {shoulder indexing} work great if you have a lot of brass to trim because they are fast. If the brass is very consistent in its hardness or anneal and all the cases resize to the dead on headspace you want then they should and will trim up very consistent and be dead on the length you set. When you have a batch of cases that are not consistent and show different headspace length after they are sized then this is exactly what you will see for a finished trim length...inconsistency, because it follows what you have for a resized length.
You are not going to hear anything bad about this device or any other item with a high cost...because once someone has spent money past a certain point they will not admit there are any issues. The spending of money, at least enough of it, causes people to ignore, forget or look past anything that could reflect negatively on what they now own. There have been a few comments to suggest issues with this trimmer, but you notice how they were not presented as problems??? If this thing didn't cost $500.00 no one would have any trouble saying they wished the cutter could be adjusted so it didn't make a straight razor out of the mouth...instead..."it's not a problem, don't know why you cant just get over it like we did." "You can always use your cases to trim your nose hair, where else but here can you get a deal like this???"
You heard how you might have to take the case holder to a "gunsmith" to make one that works....but again, it wasn't presented as any issue at all..."all ya gotta do...". One guy has stated he got the parts to fix the thing BEFORE he even has it in his hands!!!!! $500.00 and a months wait to have to go get more parts to make it work right from somebody else??? Yeah, I cant wait any longer, gotta have one asap!!!!
Click to expand...

This is not true, from my standpoint, about spending money and not being wiling to criticze the object that the money was spent on. I have the Giraud Trimmer. I feel that it was money more than well spent. I can make no criticisms of it. If I would have felt that I had made an unwise decision, I am big enough to admit it and warn others. I have Lee Trimmers and a Wilson. After using the Giraud on large amounts of Highpower Competition brass, I have no reason or desire use the Wilson or Lee trimmer even on small batches of brass.

I talked to Doug at the Nationals this year. I told him that he might think that all he did was sell me a trimmer. I told him that this was not the case, and that what he did was give me back part of my life, and that my wife would probably thank him.

I will be the first one to admit that you sometimes don't have to spend a lot to get a tool that is sufficient for your needs, but I have to admit that there are some here who have to try to make a virtue out of buying low cost tools at all cost , either because they won't spend the money, or do not have the means to, and then berate those that have, can, or do.

Danny
 
brians356 said: "I never understood how case OAL down to .001" was critical for accuracy."

.....but I didn't...never said it was or wasn't "pointless" either, what I said was that the Giraud is capable of that kind of accuracy trimming cases. Never said that kind of tolerance was critical for rifle accuracy. If there ever was a group of guys that would be fun to do the old Army drill of giving an order to the first guy and telling him to pass it on and then see how it comes out ten people later.....this is the place!!!
 
msinc said:
brians356 said: "I never understood how case OAL down to .001" was critical for accuracy."

.....but I didn't...never said it was or wasn't "pointless" either, what I said was that the Giraud is capable of that kind of accuracy trimming cases. Never said that kind of tolerance was critical for rifle accuracy. If there ever was a group of guys that would be fun to do the old Army drill of giving an order to the first guy and telling him to pass it on and then see how it comes out ten people later.....this is the place!!!
Click to expand...

I never said you were touting .001" consistency in case OAL for accuracy (as your quote makes clear) but I'm sure your point is valid in some context.
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brians356 said:
For a lot less money I can buy the Little Crow Gunworks WFT trimmer, which indexes off the shoulder but cuts square like a conventional trimmer. Sure, I still have to chamfer and deburr separately, but using a Lee lock stud / shell holder and an electric screwdriver to spin cases, I can chamfer, deburr, and steel wool a case in about 10 seconds. Since I never do more than 100 cases at a time, I'm not squandering too much of my allotted lifespan.
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Click to expand...

http://www.giraudtool.com/Tri Way Trimmer.htm
 
This thread is silly. So many aspects of reloading are speculative, subjective and provide little value. Apply a little objective scientific process and you get to the truth quickly.
 
jlow said:
Thread is not silly, only posters are....:D
Click to expand...

I agree,

I sold a Dillon 1200 trimmer 2 months ago, I sold a Gracey last month. The Dillon uses a sizing die and the Gracey used a case holder that allows the reloader to hold the case body with the hand while trimming the neck.. For me? Not a problem because I know the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. Again and one more time I have one chamber that is filed reject length from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. What that means is if I load and shoot factory, new, over the counter minimum length full length sized ammo in that rifle I will have .013" clearance so I add .011" to the length of the case between the shoulder to the case head.

When I trim cases for the long chamber I add the .011" to the length of the case because I want my cases to cover all of the chamber, or put another way, I want to cover as much of the chamber As I can.

And then there is that part about being silly or complicated; I have Wilson case gages, my Wilson case gages are datum based meaning the gage measures the length of the case from the datum to the end of the neck and from the datum to the to the case head. If a reloader understood the Wilson case gage it would not be necessary to have 4 pages of responses.

F. Guffey
 
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