Barrel Tuner vs Dapeners vs Load Development

[bsumoba]

For the most part, I am in the crowd that believes barrel tuners are not necessary and finding a load can done by the standard load development process of finding the middle of a powder charge weight, then adjusting seating depth to tighten the groups up. Part of my hesitation or unwillingness to try a tuner is that most tuners require additional work to thread the muzzle. I also believe that you need good barrels and bullets and no amount of tuning will help a bad barrel or if you are using bad bullets shoot the way you want it to shoot.

That being said, I have been thinking about using a barrel dampener for a while because recently I had my Magneto on and with a particular load I was shooting, it went from shooting sub 3/8" groups without the chrono to shooting basically one hole with the Magneto on.

I saw the limbsaver dampener thing but it would not fit a 1.25" straight barrel. I then got to thinking, what if I got a set of O-Rings (1.125" ID) and placed say 5-9 of them on the end of my barrel? My thinking being that maybe this would help to dampen the barrel harmonics, maybe making for a wider window to tune a load? This would be easy on the wallet at around 5-8 dollars total for the rings, and I would move the rings as needed. I am not sure if it will help because the weight the rings are adding is minimal, but maybe the answer is that it will simply make for your load to shoot in more variable conditions because the accuracy nodes widen a bit as you dampen the barrel and reduce the peaks of the sine wave and make them smaller and wider.

Has anyone tried this or is my thought process on dampening off base?

 

[dkhunt14]

Yes Joe Salt played with rubber on his barrel. He says it helped. I am in the camp with you about tuners. I believe it can help a bad barrel or tune a load, but i believe tuning with powder and seating is better.The guys at our club have gone away from tuners and tune with load now. They said it helped tune but most have quit using them. I don't know why because I missed this year due to my wife's medical condition. All I know is most quit using them. Matt

 

[johnmyers]

You don't use a tuner to tune a load you use to keep in tune with changing conditions, mainly temperature

 

[Keith Glasscock]

While tuners do work as advertised, I have found that I am very hesitant to turn the thing during a match. Because of that, I am going to try a couple of barrels without. I know I can tune with the load.

 

[johnmyers]

While tuners do work as advertised, I have found that I am very hesitant to turn the thing during a match. Because of that, I am going to try a couple of barrels without. I know I can tune with the load.

Tuning during match is where they shine when you know what to do

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

For the most part, I am in the crowd that believes barrel tuners are not necessary and finding a load can done by the standard load development process of finding the middle of a powder charge weight, then adjusting seating depth to tighten the groups up. Part of my hesitation or unwillingness to try a tuner is that most tuners require additional work to thread the muzzle. I also believe that you need good barrels and bullets and no amount of tuning will help a bad barrel or if you are using bad bullets shoot the way you want it to shoot.

That being said, I have been thinking about using a barrel dampener for a while because recently I had my Magneto on and with a particular load I was shooting, it went from shooting sub 3/8" groups without the chrono to shooting basically one hole with the Magneto on.

I saw the limbsaver dampener thing but it would not fit a 1.25" straight barrel. I then got to thinking, what if I got a set of O-Rings (1.125" ID) and placed say 5-9 of them on the end of my barrel? My thinking being that maybe this would help to dampen the barrel harmonics, maybe making for a wider window to tune a load? This would be easy on the wallet at around 5-8 dollars total for the rings, and I would move the rings as needed. I am not sure if it will help because the weight the rings are adding is minimal, but maybe the answer is that it will simply make for your load to shoot in more variable conditions because the accuracy nodes widen a bit as you dampen the barrel and reduce the peaks of the sine wave and make them smaller and wider.

Has anyone tried this or is my thought process on dampening off base?

You are experiencing one of the benefits of a tuner...a wider tune window. Nothing wrong with tuning traditionally, tuners just simplify tuning and broaden node width. You don't have to spend a lot of money on a tuner. As long as you can keep it from slipping under recoil, you could literally tape a weight at the muzzle and broaden the tuning window. Why not put the o rings at the muzzle. Better yet, give in and put a tuner at the muzzle. Sounds like you're fighting the obvious answer.

 

[bsumoba]

You are experiencing one of the benefits of a tuner...a wider tune window. Nothing wrong with tuning traditionally, tuners just simplify tuning and broaden node width. You don't have to spend a lot of money on a tuner. As long as you can keep it from slipping under recoil, you could literally tape a weight at the muzzle and broaden the tuning window. Why not put the o rings at the muzzle. Better yet, give in and put a tuner at the muzzle. Sounds like you're fighting the obvious answer.

I am big on trying things for myself rather than just simply reading stuff on the internet. I have no doubts that I will give in to trying a tuner. If I were to use a tuner, I know I would want to do what John Meyers does and figure out a process to change it between relays, as the conditons change. Otherwise, not touching it seems the same as finding a wide window, tune the load there and hope it shoots well in all the conditons you shoot in typically.

 

[Tommie]

Load development is (almost) all about barrel harmonics. I never played with a barrel tuner but it certainly seems like it would be easier to match harmonics to a particular load via a tuner versus traditional load development.

 

[AckleymanII]

I bought an old Savage pump in 30/30 at an auction, brand new. For giggles and grins, I saw a sale on the limb saver? doughnut rings that you put on a barrel to tune.

Barrel started off shooting pretty good with a Cheap Swift 4-12x scope on it shooting 2" groups at 100 yards. I slid the rubber down the barrel till I got consistent 3/4" groups at 100 yards loading at the rifle range. My brother had a fit and I had to sell him the rifle. My brother has a lot of expensive rifles, but I am amazed how often he grabs this clunker.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I am big on trying things for myself rather than just simply reading stuff on the internet. I have no doubts that I will give in to trying a tuner. If I were to use a tuner, I know I would want to do what John Meyers does and figure out a process to change it between relays, as the conditons change. Otherwise, not touching it seems the same as finding a wide window, tune the load there and hope it shoots well in all the conditons you shoot in typically.

I agree 100%. John can put you on the right track or I'm always happy to talk tuners. I've been shooting competitively for several years now. I started toying with tuners on cf rifles in 2007. It didn't take long for me to decide that I'd never shoot a match again, without one..at least until a better tool comes along. They don't do away with all load development, but they sure do make it easier and once I settle on a load, I never change it with a tuner. I've said it 1000 times but I'll say it again...The most common mistake with tuners is making too big of adjustments. .001" of tuner travel shows up on target with my tuners. This simplifies adjusting when needed because the range of adjustment from in tune to completely out of tune is small and manageable. I don't twist and twist. I seldom even move it, due to the wider tune window. But when I do, it's very small. The learning curve is there but it's short and sweet.

 

[BoydAllen]

One thing that is routinely overlooked in these discussions is that tuners are a way to get around barrel contour rules that are part of some kinds of competition. Shooters seem to agree that tuners broaden tuning nodes. What this means is that the usual barrel contours are not optimal for staying in tune over the broadest possible range of conditions.

Just because you have weight on a barrel, does not mean that you are fiddle with it. You can simply adjust once, leave it alone, and tune with your load as before. Think I am all wet on this? Consider the record that Gene Buckys has piled up following this exact procedure.

You may also notice that many tuners incorporate some sort of damping mechanism. It is my belief that this is because the firing mechanism generates somewhat random vibrations that subtly influence accuracy, and that incorporating some sort of damping medium reduces the influence of these unwanted vibrations.

Our rifles and what they are supported by tend to be a little to "buzzy" and do better when damping is increased. Two examples of shooters that believe this are Bart Sauter and Billy Stevens, who have mentioned that they "fluff up" their front bags between matches so that they will not be so hard.

Another example is the movement to wood and carbon fiber stocks, when the same stiffness could have been achieved with carbon fiber alone. The wood is supposed to give better damping. Back in the day, a prominent stock maker tried using all carbon fiber for a short range benchrest stock, but could never could get it to shoot. The thought was that it was because the material was too much like metal and not well enough damped...too much ring, not enough thud.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

One thing that is routinely overlooked in these discussions is that tuners are a way to get around barrel contour rules that are part of some kinds of competition. Shooters seem to agree that tuners broaden tuning nodes. What this means is that the usual barrel contours are not optimal for staying in tune over the broadest possible range of conditions.

Just because you have weight on a barrel, does not mean that you are fiddle with it. You can simply adjust once, leave it alone, and tune with your load as before. Think I am all wet on this? Consider the record that Gene Buckys has piled up following this exact procedure.

You may also notice that many tuners incorporate some sort of damping mechanism. It is my belief that this is because the firing mechanism generates somewhat random vibrations that subtly influence accuracy, and that incorporating some sort of damping medium reduces the influence of these unwanted vibrations.

Our rifles and what they are supported by tend to be a little to "buzzy" and do better when damping is increased. Two examples of shooters that believe this are Bart Sauter and Billy Stevens, who have mentioned that they "fluff up" their front bags between matches so that they will not be so hard.

Another example is the movement to wood and carbon fiber stocks, when the same stiffness could have been achieved with carbon fiber alone. The wood is supposed to give better damping. Back in the day, a prominent stock maker tried using all carbon fiber for a short range benchrest stock, but could never could get it to shoot. The thought was that it was because the material was too much like metal and not well enough damped...too much ring, not enough thud.

I'm not sure how much having a mass that you never move is overlooked. I for one, routinely state that a mass at the end of the barrel, that you never move, does have the benefit of a wider tune window. Buckys is a good example of a world class shooter that became a HOF'er in part because he was/is already one of the best at keeping a 6ppc in tune. He now uses a tuner to widen the node to which he is tuned by using a mass at the end of his barrel. A tuner can be moved or left alone, but leaving it alone is leaving a very important aspect of this tool laying on the table. IOW, he is still successful at the same thing that he has always been among the best at...keeping his rifle in tune, but he also recognizes the benefit of a wider tune window. Nothing wrong about that!

But, the ability to achieve the same effect as changing your load, at the bench, with only a small nudge of a tuner at the end of the barrel, should not be ignored. How many rifles on the line at any given match are truly tuned? With tuners and a little practice, there's no excuse for being out of tune before starting your record.

 

[savagedasher]

My take on tuners is different then most.
What sport has used. Tuners forever ?
Rim fire
Why do they use them ? Fixed ammo.
Tuners work best with ammo that have low Es Or fixed ammo .
Tuners move the bullet exit both vertically And Horizontal from the point of aim.
With a tuner you can find two distinct tune .
Up or down from the point aim or right or left from point of aim .
Bullet speed is vertical.
Seating depth is normally Horizontal
The answer I have found to work best for me is to get the lowest Es and let the tuner do its job like in Rim fire has done forever.
When I have my tuner set right I can move the tuner and correct both horizontal and vertical bullet placement on target for condition changes .
Larry

 

[johnmyers]

I agree 100%. John can put you on the right track or I'm always happy to talk tuners. I've been shooting competitively for several years now. I started toying with tuners on cf rifles in 2007. It didn't take long for me to decide that I'd never shoot a match again, without one..at least until a better tool comes along. They don't do away with all load development, but they sure do make it easier and once I settle on a load, I never change it with a tuner. I've said it 1000 times but I'll say it again...The most common mistake with tuners is making too big of adjustments. .001" of tuner travel shows up on target with my tuners. This simplifies adjusting when needed because the range of adjustment from in tune to completely out of tune is small and manageable. I don't twist and twist. I seldom even move it, due to the wider tune window. But when I do, it's very small. The learning curve is there but it's short and sweet.

Well said Mike

 

[Tim Singleton]

You said you like to try things for yourself. I'm that way as well
I tried them this year and now I'm a believer.
Seems like you already accept there is a possible benefit from what you saw with your magneto speed

 

[Slickrick0999]

My take on tuners is different then most.
What sport has used. Tuners forever ?
Rim fire
Why do they use them ? Fixed ammo.
Tuners work best with ammo that have low Es Or fixed ammo .
Tuners move the bullet exit both vertically And Horizontal from the point of aim.
With a tuner you can find two distinct tune .
Up or down from the point aim or right or left from point of aim .
Bullet speed is vertical.
Seating depth is normally Horizontal
The answer I have found to work best for me is to get the lowest Es and let the tuner do its job like in Rim fire has done forever.
When I have my tuner set right I can move the tuner and correct both horizontal and vertical bullet placement on target for condition changes .
Larry

Could you explain how it does both?

 

[Ned Ludd]

Take a look at the following analysis of the effect of tuners on barrel harmonics, if interested:

http://www.varmintal.com/atune.htm

 

[savagedasher]

Could you explain how it does both?

Can't explain how but I can show the results on paper . Go to RAS tuners . Larry

 

[savagedasher]

I think we have the only tuner with 56 TPI on the tuning ring . When you change the ring Direction . 005 it changes the group . Larry

 

[bsumoba]

So I went to the range this AM with O-Rings in hand. I am shooting a 284 Shehane, 195gr hybrids going ~2750 fps, 20K off the lands using 51.9gr H4350, 32" barrel. The inside center ID is .350". The standard load is shooting consistent low 3's. I made sure I was centered up on the center ring and shot a 3-shot group to make sure the load is centered as best as I could. Then, I used the velcro pad as a reference and shot with 6 o-rings just in front of the velcro pad, at the tip, behind the velcro pad and approximately 2 sets of o-rings behind the velcro. Then, I shot another set at the tip (target #5), which has a pulled shot that a shooter next to me timed his AR with a compensator on it, timed perfectly with his shot.

This is by no means conclusive and I will be doing this more and more to see if the pattern is consistent. It does appear that in various positions, the o-rings are changing the group sizes. The one at the tip and behind the velcro pad appears to show a shrinking of the groups and a slight POI shift to the 6 o'clock position. The other positions seems like it started to vertically string the shots.

Again, I will have to do this again to see if this can be repeated.

Just another data point in this whole conversation...