The Savage Barrel System & Costs

[Zero333]

The last 3 Shilen prefits I got (243w, 308w & 300winmag) had short freebore.

But certain VLD & Hybrid bullets work good with this shorter freebore because of their short bearing surface.

For example on my 243w Shilen barrel, a list of bullets and coal when kissing lands (from raw memory, too lazy to go downstairs to verify lol)

105 Horn. bthp - 2.720"
105 Amax - 2.760"
105 Berg. VLD - 2.830"
107 SMK - 2.850"

 

[noload]

often hear the Savage barrel nut system is a god-send for owners who change out barrels or build a rifle at home, avoiding the cost, hassle, and long waits commonly associated with gunsmiths. I am not so sure now. "I think it depends on your expectations".

I do not know what your expectations are ?
But you can by a fine savage gun for about $1400 last I knew. (When I bought mine it was $1200).
To add another barrel to it.. would be about $ 379, plus a couple cheap tools. Gun with 2 barrels=$1579

If you take another route (inexpensive custom) would probably cost easily $1000 more than the Sav. To add another barrel to that gun would be about $600. Gun with 2 barrels=$3000.
Thats my math on the matter.

 

[Phil3]

I've read this thread a couple of times and certainly may have missed something. I don't see what your intended purpose for this rifle. If you are looking to punch paper and have some fun for yourself, a Savage is fine. I have owned several and still have a couple. If that is your purpose you are wasting $$ to go with a high end barrel, chamber job etc. The after market barrels from Criterion, Shilen, Pac Not etc will do just exactly what you want. It is really point less to bother with custom reamers, gunsmiths etc and build this around a Savage action. Short range benchrest rifles are the most accurate in the world and you will NEVER see a Savage in the winner list. If you want accuracy and really feel the need to go the custom route then get a custom action and go for it. If you want economics you can split the difference and get a Remington. For serious accuracy forget the Savage. They are fine for varmints, but that's about it. Last time I bought a Criterion it was just over $300 and it will do everything you can. Flame suit on.

Rick

I am the OP.

"Intended purpose" is to shoot 100 - 300 yards, at local ranges, paper targets. No competition...ever. Just building a rifle that I hope can shoot more often than not, .25" 5 shot groups at 100 yards with well developed quality hand-loaded ammo, if I drive the gun correctly, the wind cooperates, and am my shooting setup is ideal. That is probably a stretch goal, but given I can shoot fairly consistently, under 1/2" 5 shot groups off a bipod with a 223 AR-15, I hope a 6BR can do similarly or better.

You state "It is really point less to bother with custom reamers, gunsmiths etc and build this around a Savage action". You also state "you will NEVER see a Savage in the winner list", and "For serious accuracy forget the Savage". First, one must ask just WHY is a Savage not in the winner's circle. The following thread explains much.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?83962-Savage-vs-Custom-Action. Specifically, the following post. My comments are in red. My emphasis in bold.
---------

I can give my opinions based on experience with both.

I shoot Nesika and Bat custom actions in short-range BR. My husband (kinda thick in the head) had a purpose-built BR gun built on one of the very 1st available RBLP Target actions from Savage that he uses as a HV bag gun, and I have shot it from time to time as well.

When it's all said and done, here is what I find, having shot them both is registered competition and hundreds of rounds of practice and load development:

1st the Cons:

The action is big and heavy. It is also "clunky". Things rattle both in the action and in the bolt. Yes, yes--the floating bolthead, I know. It IS large and clunky feeling, at least stock out of the box.

The action requires a larger shank barrel than the customs, meaning that it is hard to fit a LV barrel to it because of the thread diameter. With the large shank, a HV barrel is easier to fit. This makes the barrel heavy. Of no concern to me for my use.

Stock choice is limited. Very few stock makers offer short-range contour stocks for the Savage. Many are too heavy to use on a LV rifle. Since I do not compete, this too is of no concern to me.

Even with the "Evolution" trigger, and a timing job, the bolt lift (without a case in the chamber) is almost twice as heavy as either of my custom actions. Read this to mean, it is twice as hard to lift the bolt. Read this to mean that lifting the bolt upsets the gun in the bags considerably more than with the custom actions. Read this to mean that it takes more time to get back on target after every shot. This is magnified greatly when unlocking the bolt on a fired case. I am in no rush to get back on target. I am not competing. If conditions change, I'll wait or try my hand at compensating.

Even with the "Evolution" trigger, and a timing job, the bolt cam force (without a case in the chamber) is greater than either of my custom actions. Read this to mean, it is harder to close the bolt. Read this to mean that closing the bolt upsets the gun in the bags considerably more than with the custom actions. Read this to mean that it takes more time to get back on target after every shot. This is magnified slightly when chambering an actual round. I am in no rush to get back on target. I am not competing.

The bolt is not coned nor is the barrel tapered, so most of the time feeding and chambering is not very smooth. It is possible to jam the round between the boltface and the flat of the barrel tenon. Either of these things happening can change the dimensions of the round, deform the bullet, or simply add to the hassle of having to dig the loaded case out of the action and guiding it into the chamber by hand. Maybe so. I have operated the identical Long Range Precision Varminter and found no issues.

If you want to glue the action into the stock, the barrels have to be conventionally mounted against a shoulder, with the recoil lug permanently attached to the reciever. This means no barrel nut. Gluing actions? I am not that hardcore, as a non-competitor.

The supplied trigger-guard is heavy. Of zero concern to me.

Now the Pros:

The Savage action is capable of shooting the same size groups as the customs. Great.

If you have all day to shoot those groups that is. I do. Both my husband and I have managed groups in the "ones", just not as many as with the customs. It is so hard to be smooth in the process of extracting, ejecting, and chambering rounds that too much time is required to get back on target between shots. Of no real concern to me.

If you are a "runner" it is darn-near impossible to get all 5 record shots downrange before a condition change. It is simply no where near as fast. On my best attempts, I am AT LEAST twice as fast with the customs, and they DO NOT have ejectors fitted to them. I shot a 300 Weatherby Mag 65 lb. open class NBRSA gun at 1000 yards with a custom action, and was a "runner". Yup, it is definitely faster than a Savage, but not using the Savage in competition, so...

It is 1/2 the price for the action. Can always appreciate that!

It has a floating bolt-head.

Easily adjustable firing pin protrusion.

So, in actual use next to custom actions, I can say that the Savage action is every bit a accurate as the custom. It is just alot harder to use. Can't disagree, just more effort to do everything, but not a big deal to me for a savings of over $500 and non-competition use.

Because of the weight of the action and bolt, the large diameter needed for the barrel, the limited availability of lightwieght stocks, and the heavy factory triggerguard it is almost impossible to get down into a 10-1/2 pound LV configuration. Of absolutely no concern to me.

It is frustrating to use when compared to a custom.

At the end of the day, it wasn't any less expensive either. Gunsmithing costs are higher on the Savage (trigger, action timing, barreling, flat and parallel recoil lug, pinning the recoil lug, stock fitting, etc).

That's my two cents anyway,

Lisa
------------

In Lisa's experience, the accuracy is no different between a Savage and a custom, if you have the extra time to use the Savage and are OK with it being harder to use. Time is a complete non-issue for me, and I am OK with the extra effort to use, especially given the money saved. I do want very good accuracy, as described above, and will do all I can to see what I can make it deliver. Given Lisa's experience, the Savage action is the best for me, and a custom would be a waste of money. For a competitor, I can see how a Savage (or Remington in my opinion), would be a waste of money.

As an aside, I like to see what accuracy I can get out of different platforms. I did spend the bucks for a premium cut-rifled barrel and trigger on an AR-15. I just wanted to see how accurate an AR-15 could be and was quite pleased with that fun project.

Phil

 

[Phil3]

often hear the Savage barrel nut system is a god-send for owners who change out barrels or build a rifle at home, avoiding the cost, hassle, and long waits commonly associated with gunsmiths. I am not so sure now. "I think it depends on your expectations".

I do not know what your expectations are ?
But you can by a fine savage gun for about $1400 last I knew. (When I bought mine it was $1200).
To add another barrel to it.. would be about $ 379, plus a couple cheap tools. Gun with 2 barrels=$1579

If you take another route (inexpensive custom) would probably cost easily $1000 more than the Sav. To add another barrel to that gun would be about $600. Gun with 2 barrels=$3000.
Thats my math on the matter.

My original post was just a comment on the Savage" system in general. My personal expectations for my 6BR are an accurate, modestly priced rifle capable of printing 0.25" 5 shot groups more often than not when fed high quality well developed handloads, off a mechanical front rest and heavy rear bag.

Your math is valid...and tempting.

Phil

 

[Linko]

I have 3 Savage rifles. Geting ready for a barrel change.

Is one barrel nut wrench the preferred one. one better than the others?

 

[Mozella]

.... snip....... My personal expectations for my 6BR are an accurate, modestly priced rifle capable of printing 0.25" 5 shot groups more often than not......... snip....

I'm a big fan of Savage and I have a 6mm BR Norma not unlike what you're proposing which I use for 600 yd BR. I've done a lot of load work-up @ 100 yards. I use a computer target evaluation program and I keep careful records.

I have plenty of 5 shot groups less than .239 MOA (which is 1/4" @ 100 yds) but I can't average that group size, not even close. I would say I can essentially guarantee sub 1/2" groups @ 100 yards. My records show that it's a safe $5 bet that my next 5 rounds at 600 yards will be sub 1/2 MOA in normal conditions and sub 1 MOA in nearly any condition. That of course is not world class performance, but I would say it's not too bad for a half blind 72 year old fat guy.

What I do know is that averaging better than .239 MOA five-shot groups @ 100 yds, even under good conditions, is NOT easy. Shooting groups where all the holes frequently touch or touch even most of the time is one thing and certainly well within the capability of a DIY Savage based gun. But averaging better than .239 MOA........ well that is a stretch for any person and any rifle.

Not to say that it's impossible, but if you carefully measure your 5 shot groups with a scanner and a computer scoring system rather than a coin or a carpenters tape, I would say it would be a real accomplishment if you can honestly do it more often than not. If you and your new Savage do manage a sub .239 MOA 5 shot average, please report back.

 

[6MMsteve]

I have 3 Savage rifles. Geting ready for a barrel change.

Is one barrel nut wrench the preferred one. one better than the others?

I think Northland has a heavy duty thick wrench and a short stubby wrench, If I was going to buy another I would get the thickest I could get, but I don't torque my barrels very tight anymore just snug

 

[dskogman]

I have both and agree with everything Lisa said. The bolt action will never be as smooth but you can live with it. The trigger is the other thing. A target Accutrigger while a good factory trigger cannot be set nearly as light and consistent as a custom. The evolution trigger is the only way I know to get there and it requires an action job as well and a long wait (I've got one in the queue).

 

[Phil3]

I'm a big fan of Savage and I have a 6mm BR Norma not unlike what you're proposing which I use for 600 yd BR. I've done a lot of load work-up @ 100 yards. I use a computer target evaluation program and I keep careful records.

I have plenty of 5 shot groups less than .239 MOA (which is 1/4" @ 100 yds) but I can't average that group size, not even close. I would say I can essentially guarantee sub 1/2" groups @ 100 yards. My records show that it's a safe $5 bet that my next 5 rounds at 600 yards will be sub 1/2" in normal conditions and sub 1 MOA in nearly any condition. That of course is not world class performance, but I would say it's not too bad for a half blind 72 year old fat guy.

What I do know is that averaging better than .239 MOA five-shot groups @ 100 yds, even under good conditions, is NOT easy. Shooting groups where all the holes frequently touch or touch even most of the time is one thing and certainly well within the capability of a DIY Savage based gun. But averaging better than .239 MOA........ well that is a stretch for any person and any rifle.

Not to say that it's impossible, but if you carefully measure your 5 shot groups with a scanner and a computer scoring system rather than a coin or a carpenters tape, I would say it would be a real accomplishment if you can honestly do it more often than not. If you and your new Savage do manage a sub .239 MOA 5 shot average, please report back.

Thanks for your feedback and results. I agree..., I think my objective is a stretch (as I said earlier), but that is fine..., I am OK with a challenge. I will definitely report back with results. I would like to use a good group measuring system/software, and as I recall, there is some sort of freeware for doing that. ??? What do you use?


Phil

 

[Mozella]

Thanks for your feedback and results. I agree..., I think my objective is a stretch (as I said earlier), but that is fine..., I am OK with a challenge. I will definitely report back with results. I would like to use a good group measuring system/software, and as I recall, there is some sort of freeware for doing that. ??? What do you use?


Phil

I use On Target software. I think they have a free version, but I use the one which costs $12. It's well worth the cost. I prefer to make my own letter sized targets, 10 bulls to a page, shoot 50 rounds/sheet, and then take the targets home and scan them. However, you can also photograph a target with a camera or smart phone and by using a scale reference (10" black bull for example) you can scale the photo and then score the hits.

You designate an aim point, mark the hits after setting the caliber, and then you can save the results. You can keep a jpg image file of the scored target if you wish, but I keep the target data matrix in an Excel spreadsheet. On Target gives you all sorts of measured and calculated information. Of course, by adding a few extra cells, you can calculate MOA at various ranges, list powder type, add MV data, or whatever you want. I keep an Excel worksheet for each trip to the range. I also copy that data and gather ALL my shots for a particular rifle in one huge sheet.

That way I can sort any parameter to see, for instance, what is the average MOA using IMR 8208 XBR at 200 yards with bullets between 69gr and 77gr. Try that with your tattered notebook.

By the way, my goal is to shoot 1/4 MOA groups more often than not. I keep trying, but I'm not ready to place any bets larger than a beer's worth.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Why not buy a used BR rifle with a custom action, great trigger, and stock designed for shooting off bags, for about the same price as the Savage? These often come with a spare (or even multiple) barrels, many have been smithed by the best in the business, and will hold their value much better than the Savage.

E.g., B35, B39, B41, B46, B47, etc. on "The List."

 

[Greyfox]

I am the OP.

"That's my two cents anyway,

Lisa
------------

In Lisa's experience, the accuracy is no different between a Savage and a custom, if you have the extra time to use the Savage and are OK with it being harder to use. Time is a complete non-issue for me, and I am OK with the extra effort to use, especially given the money saved. I do want very good accuracy, as described above, and will do all I can to see what I can make it deliver. Given Lisa's experience, the Savage action is the best for me, and a custom would be a waste of money. For a competitor, I can see how a Savage (or Remington in my opinion), would be a waste of money.

As an aside, I like to see what accuracy I can get out of different platforms. I did spend the bucks for a premium cut-rifled barrel and trigger on an AR-15. I just wanted to see how accurate an AR-15 could be and was quite pleased with that fun project.

Phil

Phil,
Thanks for the detailed reply as well as just how you have arrived at your POV. FWIW- if you look at that thread that you posted you will see that I commented on it four years ago. Also, I can tell you with experience that Lisa is mistaken in her opinion that a Savage action is just as accurate as a Custom. This is definitely NOT the case. Let me share my back ground is saying this. I have competed in IBS short range Varmint For Score and Ultimate Benchrest Matches for the past 15 years. The past 6 years have all been Ultimate Bench Rest which is unique in that it recognizes 4 classes, Factory (factory action, barrel stock 13.5 lbs), Modified (factory action, any barrel, any stock 13.5lbs), Custom (custom action, etc 13.5lbs) and Unlimited (any action, barrel, stock, no weight restriction). In a UBR match all classes shoot together at the same targets. They are all scored at the same time with the same criteria. They are then separated according to class. Savage rifles are frequently shot in Factory Class which they win from time to time. They are also shot in Modified class with custom barrels and stocks. They win rarely, not more than a couple of times per season, if that. Only once in 6 years do I recall a Savage winning in Unlimited class. It was a 6 Dasher and weighed something like 16 lbs. The shooter stopped shooting matches shortly thereafter, so we never knew if that match was a fluke.

I run the matches at my home range and have scored literally hundreds of targets, actually several thousand come to think of it. I have never seen a Modified Savage shoot a score better than the mid pack score of Custom class. It just does not happen. If it did, there would be many more people shooting Savages. In fact, in Modified Class, Savages rarely beat Modified Remingtons. They make a very good hunting, varmint rifle, but they just do not compare with custom rifles/actions. The trigger was mentioned. I have owned a Savage with Fred Moreo's action truing/timing and the Evolution trigger. It was totally unreliable at less than 6 oz. I had better results with the Accutrigger (blade removed) which was a better trigger at 6oz.

If you choose to build the rifle you ask about and don't use the barrel nut system, you will spend as much as you would for a very good, used custom rifle which will consistently beat your Savage. The key word is consistent. A good Savage rifle will shoot .25" groups now and then. .25" groups aren't easy to shoot. But there is no way a Savage will agg .25". Look at the scores from the Super Shoot or any large group match. You will see plenty of aggs well over .25". I tend to believe whatever people tell me is true until I find out differently, but I will question that you can shoot .5 groups off a bi-pod with an AR. While I am sure you can do it now and then, I simply do not believe you can do this consistently time after time. I would be more than willing to bet good money that you cannot shoot 5 .5" groups in a row. Of course, unless you live in Middle TN, neither of us can prove it. I don't doubt your truthfulness, but I do doubt that you have actually done this. You probably just think you can. I will add a couple of things here. Unless you are shooting over wind flags, I definitely don't believe you can accomplish this. And one other thing, while I understand anyone's reluctance to enter into competition, I will flatly state that if you do not actively compete against other shooters you will never achieve your shooting potential.

You can believe what Lisa says, although referring to that thread there were those who did disagree. You can believe the earth is flat and that the moon is made of green cheese. It's your money and you can do and believe what you want. But a Savage is nowhere near the accuracy of a Panda, BAT, Stiller, Hall etc. in the real world.

Rick

 

[savagedasher]

What barrels do you like and work well on the Savage? Phil

Kreiger

What barrels do you like and work well on the Savage? Phil

What barrels do you like and work well on the Savage? Phil

Phil,
Thanks for the detailed reply as well as just how you have arrived at your POV. FWIW- if you look at that thread that you posted you will see that I commented on it four years ago. Also, I can tell you with experience that Lisa is mistaken in her opinion that a Savage action is just as accurate as a Custom. This is definitely NOT the case. Let me share my back ground is saying this. I have competed in IBS short range Varmint For Score and Ultimate Benchrest Matches for the past 15 years. The past 6 years have all been Ultimate Bench Rest which is unique in that it recognizes 4 classes, Factory (factory action, barrel stock 13.5 lbs), Modified (factory action, any barrel, any stock 13.5lbs), Custom (custom action, etc 13.5lbs) and Unlimited (any action, barrel, stock, no weight restriction). In a UBR match all classes shoot together at the same targets. They are all scored at the same time with the same criteria. They are then separated according to class. Savage rifles are frequently shot in Factory Class which they win from time to time. They are also shot in Modified class with custom barrels and stocks. They win rarely, not more than a couple of times per season, if that. Only once in 6 years do I recall a Savage winning in Unlimited class. It was a 6 Dasher and weighed something like 16 lbs. The shooter stopped shooting matches shortly thereafter, so we never knew if that match was a fluke.

I run the matches at my home range and have scored literally hundreds of targets, actually several thousand come to think of it. I have never seen a Modified Savage shoot a score better than the mid pack score of Custom class. It just does not happen. If it did, there would be many more people shooting Savages. In fact, in Modified Class, Savages rarely beat Modified Remingtons. They make a very good hunting, varmint rifle, but they just do not compare with custom rifles/actions. The trigger was mentioned. I have owned a Savage with Fred Moreo's action truing/timing and the Evolution trigger. It was totally unreliable at less than 6 oz. I had better results with the Accutrigger (blade removed) which was a better trigger at 6oz.

If you choose to build the rifle you ask about and don't use the barrel nut system, you will spend as much as you would for a very good, used custom rifle which will consistently beat your Savage. The key word is consistent. A good Savage rifle will shoot .25" groups now and then. .25" groups aren't easy to shoot. But there is no way a Savage will agg .25". Look at the scores from the Super Shoot or any large group match. You will see plenty of aggs well over .25". I tend to believe whatever people tell me is true until I find out differently, but I will question that you can shoot .5 groups off a bi-pod with an AR. While I am sure you can do it now and then, I simply do not believe you can do this consistently time after time. I would be more than willing to bet good money that you cannot shoot 5 .5" groups in a row. Of course, unless you live in Middle TN, neither of us can prove it. I don't doubt your truthfulness, but I do doubt that you have actually done this. You probably just think you can. I will add a couple of things here. Unless you are shooting over wind flags, I definitely don't believe you can accomplish this. And one other thing, while I understand anyone's reluctance to enter into competition, I will flatly state that if you do not actively compete against other shooters you will never achieve your shooting potential.

You can believe what Lisa says, although referring to that thread there were those who did disagree. You can believe the earth is flat and that the moon is made of green cheese. It's your money and you can do and believe what you want. But a Savage is nowhere near the accuracy of a Panda, BAT, Stiller, Hall etc. in the real world.

Rick

Accuracy come from the barrel not the action . If the case is held true with the same head space Only the barrel would change the impact on paper. The reason savage isn't used it the weigh and how smooth the action works . Your talking two different Games
Larry

 

[Phil3]

Phil,
Thanks for the detailed reply as well as just how you have arrived at your POV. FWIW- if you look at that thread that you posted you will see that I commented on it four years ago. Also, I can tell you with experience that Lisa is mistaken in her opinion that a Savage action is just as accurate as a Custom. This is definitely NOT the case. Let me share my back ground is saying this. I have competed in IBS short range Varmint For Score and Ultimate Benchrest Matches for the past 15 years. The past 6 years have all been Ultimate Bench Rest which is unique in that it recognizes 4 classes, Factory (factory action, barrel stock 13.5 lbs), Modified (factory action, any barrel, any stock 13.5lbs), Custom (custom action, etc 13.5lbs) and Unlimited (any action, barrel, stock, no weight restriction). In a UBR match all classes shoot together at the same targets. They are all scored at the same time with the same criteria. They are then separated according to class. Savage rifles are frequently shot in Factory Class which they win from time to time. They are also shot in Modified class with custom barrels and stocks. They win rarely, not more than a couple of times per season, if that. Only once in 6 years do I recall a Savage winning in Unlimited class. It was a 6 Dasher and weighed something like 16 lbs. The shooter stopped shooting matches shortly thereafter, so we never knew if that match was a fluke.

I run the matches at my home range and have scored literally hundreds of targets, actually several thousand come to think of it. I have never seen a Modified Savage shoot a score better than the mid pack score of Custom class. It just does not happen. If it did, there would be many more people shooting Savages. In fact, in Modified Class, Savages rarely beat Modified Remingtons. They make a very good hunting, varmint rifle, but they just do not compare with custom rifles/actions. The trigger was mentioned. I have owned a Savage with Fred Moreo's action truing/timing and the Evolution trigger. It was totally unreliable at less than 6 oz. I had better results with the Accutrigger (blade removed) which was a better trigger at 6oz.

If you choose to build the rifle you ask about and don't use the barrel nut system, you will spend as much as you would for a very good, used custom rifle which will consistently beat your Savage. The key word is consistent. A good Savage rifle will shoot .25" groups now and then. .25" groups aren't easy to shoot. But there is no way a Savage will agg .25". Look at the scores from the Super Shoot or any large group match. You will see plenty of aggs well over .25". I tend to believe whatever people tell me is true until I find out differently, but I will question that you can shoot .5 groups off a bi-pod with an AR. While I am sure you can do it now and then, I simply do not believe you can do this consistently time after time. I would be more than willing to bet good money that you cannot shoot 5 .5" groups in a row. Of course, unless you live in Middle TN, neither of us can prove it. I don't doubt your truthfulness, but I do doubt that you have actually done this. You probably just think you can. I will add a couple of things here. Unless you are shooting over wind flags, I definitely don't believe you can accomplish this. And one other thing, while I understand anyone's reluctance to enter into competition, I will flatly state that if you do not actively compete against other shooters you will never achieve your shooting potential.

You can believe what Lisa says, although referring to that thread there were those who did disagree. You can believe the earth is flat and that the moon is made of green cheese. It's your money and you can do and believe what you want. But a Savage is nowhere near the accuracy of a Panda, BAT, Stiller, Hall etc. in the real world.

Rick

I am confident you understand that I cannot take as gospel your pronouncements and absolutes (i.e., "Lisa is mistaken in her opinion that a Savage action is just as accurate as a Custom", This is definitely NOT the case"), anymore than I can take as gospel, what Lisa says. However, Lisa has driven both the Savage and the custom, and expect that her comments are based on observable results. I don't know that for sure, but she is clearly not pro-Savage.

You have returned to using competition results as evidence of the superior accuracy of a Savage. As Lisa pointed out, there are a multitude of issues using a Savage in competition. Mechanical inherent accuracy may or may not be one of them. Most of the issues that would keep one from using a Savage in competition are not applicable to me, since I will never compete.

Please tell me, just what is it about a custom action that allows it to deliver superior accuracy vs a custom? What design attributes does the custom offer over a Savage that will allow the custom to print tighter groups? I am NOT talking about ease of operation. I concede the trigger is a plus for the custom. I am talking about both actions, cocked, loaded, locked down, same barrel (switched if possible), and fired. Is there something in the custom action that will steer that bullet to the target more accurately than a Savage? I really want to know.

"...but I will question that you can shoot .5 groups off a bi-pod with an AR. While I am sure you can do it now and then, I simply do not believe you can do this consistently time after time. I would be more than willing to bet good money that you cannot shoot 5 .5" groups in a row. Of course, unless you live in Middle TN, neither of us can prove it. I don't doubt your truthfulness, but I do doubt that you have actually done this. You probably just think you can. I will add a couple of things here. Unless you are shooting over wind flags, I definitely don't believe you can accomplish this".

My AR has printed five shot .5" groups off a bipod at 100 yards. I don't know about back to back group performance, but never claimed I could do 1/2" 5 shot groups consistently, so why do you state, "I simply do not believe you can do this consistently time after time". You are telling me you do not believe something I never claimed. Huh? I presume by "I do doubt you have ever done this", you mean five 5 shot groups under 1/2". If so, again, I never claimed to have done this. Regardless of your opinions, the truth is that my AR has printed five shot groups under 1/2" at 100 yards off a bipod, and has done so more than a few times. The rifle has a few hundred rounds at most. The truth and facts are what they are, unchanged by other's opinions.

The AR was built for accuracy off a bench only, so the performance does not surprise me. It has shot a 5 shot group under .3".

"...but I do doubt that you have actually done this". You probably just think you can". No, I speak in facts about the AR's past performance.

"I don't doubt your truthfulness..". Oh yes you do.

"Unless you are shooting over wind flags, I definitely don't believe you can accomplish this".

No flags. On the other hand, the place I shoot is very often dead still. Since that range is closing permanently in a couple of weeks, I will never have that benefit again.

Phil

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

For $2100 I bought a used Panda 30BR with 3 barrels (1000 rounds, 250 rounds, and 0 rounds), smithed by Stan Ware, from this site's classifieds. With plain old Berger 115gr it shot like this (below) the first time at the range, just checking charge weights (H4198) and seating depths (3-shot groups, 100 yd.). If you have a Savage that will shoot like this, please post the targets.

 

[Greyfox]

I am confident you understand that I cannot take as gospel your pronouncements and absolutes (i.e., "Lisa is mistaken in her opinion that a Savage action is just as accurate as a Custom", This is definitely NOT the case"), anymore than I can take as gospel, what Lisa says. However, Lisa has driven both the Savage and the custom, and expect that her comments are based on observable results. I don't know that for sure, but she is clearly not pro-Savage.

You have returned to using competition results as evidence of the superior accuracy of a Savage. As Lisa pointed out, there are a multitude of issues using a Savage in competition. Mechanical inherent accuracy may or may not be one of them. Most of the issues that would keep one from using a Savage in competition are not applicable to me, since I will never compete.

Please tell me, just what is it about a custom action that allows it to deliver superior accuracy vs a custom? What design attributes does the custom offer over a Savage that will allow the custom to print tighter groups? I am NOT talking about ease of operation. I concede the trigger is a plus for the custom. I am talking about both actions, cocked, loaded, locked down, same barrel (switched if possible), and fired. Is there something in the custom action that will steer that bullet to the target more accurately than a Savage? I really want to know.

Short and simple answer is no slop and everything is inline on center. This is certainly not true of Savage or any other factory action. That is why most actions that are set up for extreme accuracy are trued and timed. Even Savages can benefit from that, but not as much as a Remington.

"...but I will question that you can shoot .5 groups off a bi-pod with an AR. While I am sure you can do it now and then, I simply do not believe you can do this consistently time after time. I would be more than willing to bet good money that you cannot shoot 5 .5" groups in a row. Of course, unless you live in Middle TN, neither of us can prove it. I don't doubt your truthfulness, but I do doubt that you have actually done this. You probably just think you can. I will add a couple of things here. Unless you are shooting over wind flags, I definitely don't believe you can accomplish this".

My AR has printed five shot .5" groups off a bipod at 100 yards. I don't know about back to back group performance, but never claimed I could do 1/2" 5 shot groups consistently, so why do you state, "I simply do not believe you can do this consistently time after time". You are telling me you do not believe something I never claimed. Huh? I presume by "I do doubt you have ever done this", you mean five 5 shot groups under 1/2". If so, again, I never claimed to have done this. Regardless of your opinions, the truth is that my AR has printed five shot groups under 1/2" at 100 yards off a bipod, and has done so more than a few times. The rifle has a few hundred rounds at most. The truth and facts are what they are, unchanged by other's opinions.

My response was in poor taste and I do apologize. What I should have said was, most every decent rifle can print a good group now and then. Accuracy is about consistency. If it can't consistently shoot small groups it isn't accurate to that degree. Your true accuracy can only be measured in what it and you can do on a consistent basis.

The AR was built for accuracy off a bench only, so the performance does not surprise me. It has shot a 5 shot group under .3".

And I have shot groups in the .1s frequently and in the .0's now and then. But I can't do it every time, so it means nothing.


"...but I do doubt that you have actually done this". You probably just think you can". No, I speak in facts about the AR's past performance.

"I don't doubt your truthfulness..". Oh yes you do.

As I said above, this was a poor response, again I apologize. What I disagree with is your terminology.

"Unless you are shooting over wind flags, I definitely don't believe you can accomplish this".

No flags. On the other hand, the place I shoot is very often dead still. Since that range is closing permanently in a couple of weeks, I will never have that benefit again.

If you are shooting for accuracy, wind flags are a necessity..... period. The wind always blows. Sometimes a little more and sometimes less, but it always blows. A 5 mph wind will blow a 118 gr 308 bullet a full bullet hole in 100 yards. Without flags you can't see a 5 mph wind down range. Until you realize you don't know these things and are willing to make some changes you are not going to progress. It would be a complete waste of money to spend what you are planning on a Savage. And until you gain some understanding you should probably just hold up on building anything.

No offense intended. It is what it is.
Rick

Phil

 

[swadiver]

Savage Target Action
Criterion 1 in 10 twist 28" .308 barrel
XLR Industries Element chassis
all 5 shots @ 100yds seated or prone with a Caldwell rest or a SEB-JOY POD

Sorry the first two pics are the same shot, my bad

I could go on, but point made

 

[swd]

If you wait a while and watch the classifeds I don't know why anyone would buy a Savage, or a Remington, even a custom on one for that matter. As long as your willing to have something other than the in crowd of Bat and Borden there are lots of very high quality aftermarket actions that within a few months you can find a really nice custom rifle for $1400-$1800. I have a couple Nesika's and they're Ferrari's compared to a Savage. They may or may not shoot any better but they are definately nicer to own for very little more money.

 

[Phil3]

Why not buy a used BR rifle with a custom action, great trigger, and stock designed for shooting off bags, for about the same price as the Savage?

Well, to answer that is liable to cause ruffled feathers, and perhaps even be rebuffed by some members of this forum. I certainly hope not, but I fear otherwise. I will address this in another topic and separate post. Today or tonight.

Phil

 

[savagedasher]

If you wait a while and watch the classifeds I don't know why anyone would buy a Savage, or a Remington, even a custom on one for that matter. As long as your willing to have something other than the in crowd of Bat and Borden there are lots of very high quality aftermarket actions that within a few months you can find a really nice custom rifle for $1400-$1800. I have a couple Nesika's and they're Ferrari's compared to a Savage. They may or may not shoot any better but they are definately nicer to own for very little more money.

Can they be magazine fed can they be 223 308 and mag bolt face . Savage can be all the above . And still shoot.
Larry