LEARNED FROM 20 SHOTS WITH DASHER BRASS

[NC308]

Perhaps this brass should have been called something different than Dasher brass?? Then there would have been no arguing.

 

[Pappy42]

Heck, it is what it is-dasher brass! Buy it or don't. Shoot it or don't.

Sometimes when I buy a new lot of Varget, I have to jiggle the amount a little. Let's start a thread about Varget. Only kidding!

 

[FatBoy]

There is a lot of good info in this thread. The lower starting points and ability to trim and use in non-Norma chambers is great to know. Also, seeing that this brass will shoot and last a good long time is also excellent info. As always, we lay our money down and take our chances.

 

[CaptainMal]

Thanks, I needed that.

That Varget bottle in the picture is not full of the Varget it came in. I took 24 lbs and two different lots, plus some other odd 1# lots and stirred them all in a big boiler. Kind of scary when I did it but wanted them mixed together as much as is reasonable.

Oops. That's another topic.

 

[ASbobcat]

I have run int

Donovan. You have a unique ability to supply information and make people happy. It's nice to know of you.

Today I won the 600 yard shoot and after, set up my new Dasher for more testing. Failure but failure is informative. 32.9 gr. of Varget is also too much pressure for the factory-new Norma brass in Dasher with 105 Hybrids. I was shocked to see velocities in the 3040 to 3050 range and just the start of primer blanking. To me I read - STOP. Next test will be down to 32.7 until I can feel comfortable with what I see as pressure signs and reasonable velocity.

What I learned MORE was while pulling the bullets from those I loaded and did not fire. Literally broke my Lyman inertia bullet puller. Ordered a new one for the one that cracked today. It took literally 10 - 15 smacks to pull each bullet. No clue why there is so much neck tension. I expanded all necks as they were factory tight. Inserted a .243 pilot in each neck to trim the neck thickness back to .0125+-" I'm reading that as puzzling and will soon look at that issue. This is factory new brass that I have not fired or annealed yet.

I have also run into this same excessive neck tension issue with other calibers. If you expanded the necks and they are still too tight, it tells me from my experience that the necks have not been properly annealed. If this was virgin brass, it's just one more in a growing number of reasons for me to avoid the new Norma brass.

 

[ASbobcat]

Had Eric Bostrom build me a new dasher with the old reamer specs. on a Stolle Kodiak action using a Bartlein ( from Bullets.com) 7.5 twist and his new-style ARS tuner.



Broken in with 21 choreographed shots and Lapua brass, I got 3051 fps with 33.4 gr. of Varget and NO pressure signs. I accented the "NO" for a reason. Also got .4 MOA during some of that shooting.

Yesterday I loaded 20 Norma Dasher pieces, trimmed 1.560" to fit my 1.563" throat and neck-turned to .0125+-". CCI 450's, 105 Berger Hybrids, Varget...

Started at 32.4 gr. and got 2970 fps. That's high compared to Lapua. No pressure signs.

**** My purpose for the test was pressure and velocity - NOT accuracy. My target is out at 240 yards. All 3 shot groups were sub 1/2 moa in spite of the grass, my casual techniques and totally ignoring wind.

32.6 gr. (4 shots now) went to 2990 fps and no pressure signs.
32.8 ( 5 shots) went from 3023 - 3037 fps with one, ironically the lower velocity one, showed the start of a primer blank.
33.0 gr. (5 shots) ran from 3044 - 3057 B U T near blanked a primer. Look...

I should have stopped the test but the other four shots did NOT show a problem.

33.2 gr. and I stopped. 3072 - 3079 fps Stupid fast with just a hint of primer issues. Nothing even remotely close to that one at 33.0 grains. WAY too fast anyhow - I quit.

Ironically the top two test loadings were UNDER 1" in group size at 240 yards. I mean "under" with no try on my end. Actually, apprehension shooting due to pressure and velocity signs.

Back at the loading bench this morning and I measured all heads. I detect no change in size.

Primer pockets, including the horrible near-blank one are all under .1735" That's the size of the depth gauge from K&M. I would have to force it in if I wanted to measure. Their "No Go" primer gauge measures .1750". Conclusion is the primer pockets did not enlarge at all. GOOD!

I now have three shell holders for this brass. The Hornady #2 sizes brass .004 smaller than the one I got from Bullets.com. Another, an RCBS #2 sizes .002" LARGER than the Bullets.com one. CHECK YOUR SHELL HOLDERS IF YOU HAVE MULTIPLE! Mine in the same press yield different results.

Draw your own conclusions. I am not a professional loader with machine tool experience. Just a guy named "Joe". I will now load 32.9 gr. and below for my accuracy/tuning tests. Compared to my Lapua cases - these Norma ones give similar velocity around .6 grains or so - LESS. They also seem to handle obscene over pressure with no issues.

More to come.

The primer on the right does not look "blanked" to me, it looks "cratered". I don't see significant "flattening" if that's what you meant. The cratering without flattening usually means an oversize firing pin hole, not necessarily excessive pressure.
I have found the three most reliable signs of excess pressure to be sticky bolt lift, ejector swipes and spreading primer pockets. A flattened primer could be simply from inserting it into an oversize primer pocket. Speaking of which, every piece of Lapua brass I've owned (in several calibers) has had a primer pocket diameter of .1710. When mine get to .1735 I throw them out (A new primer measures .1750). This has only happened to me when I had excess neck tension and blew the ejector clean out of my action first! And you're telling me virgin Norma pockets are .1735? Yet another reason not to buy the stuff.
BTW, I get 2950 fps in my straight 6BR with 105 VLD's an RL17 and my Lapua pockets are still .1710 after 20 firings.

 

[boltman223]

I have run int

I have also run into this same excessive neck tension issue with other calibers. If you expanded the necks and they are still too tight, it tells me from my experience that the necks have not been properly annealed. If this was virgin brass, it's just one more in a growing number of reasons for me to avoid the new Norma brass.

I think excessive is somewhat subjective and not necessarily a bad sign. And I know for a fact that lapua brass can have considerably more neck tension than a fired case. I MEAN CONSIDERABLY. I wouldn't discount norma for this reason.

 

[ASbobcat]

I think excessive is somewhat subjective and not necessarily a bad sign. And I know for a fact that lapua brass can have considerably more neck tension than a fired case. I MEAN CONSIDERABLY. I wouldn't discount norma for this reason.

Lapua brass, like most others, is always tight necked out of the box and should always be resized/expanded before first firing. After that neck tension is entirely in your hands, depending upon how often and how correctly you anneal and careful you are selecting the proper bushing.
The problem with "pretty" virgin brass (Norma, Nosler) is that the polishing process to remove the annealing discoloration re-hardens the necks and basically negates the factory anneal. That's why Lapua and Lake City leave that blue/gray oxidation that some of us find quite "pretty".

 

[ASbobcat]

Out of curiosity, could someone please post what the virgin primer pocket diameter is of the new 6Dasher Norma brass?
Thanks

 

[dmoran]

....
The problem with "pretty" virgin brass (Norma, Nosler) is that the polishing process to remove the annealing discoloration re-hardens the necks and basically negates the factory anneal. That's why Lapua and Lake City leave that blue/gray oxidation that some of us find quite "pretty".

I would like to see the hardness tests proving that comment if your claiming it to be factual.
As to the opinion, my own is contrary.....

While I will agree Lapua can be fantastic brass to use, I detect a lot of bias in your replies to it.
But which you are entitled to, and each to our own....
Donovan

 

[ASbobcat]

I would like to see the hardness tests proving that comment if your claiming it to be factual.
As to the opinion, my own is contrary.....

While I will agree Lapua can be fantastic brass to use, I detect a lot of bias in your replies to it.
But which you are entitled to, and each to our own....
Donovan

Donovan,
Here is how I learned about tumbling and neck hardness. I posted this same information a couple years ago when I first discovered it, but it's worth repeating because it involves safety.
I bought one of the tumblers that uses stainless steel pins and followed the manufacturers directions. Brass came out shinier than new. Wondered why the was a "flare" at the case mouth after resizing. Ignored the significantly greater than customary seating pressure and headed to the range. First shot sounded louder than normal and I noticed smoke coming from the action. Took a hammer to open the bold and my extractor and primer were nowhere to be found. I called it day and during the "post-mortem" investigation found the following. The fired primer pocket was .1780 and it took 15-20 whacks with the kinetic bullet puller to disassemble the unfired cases (normal would be 2 or 3).
I then checked for the same issue with several different caliber cases from numerous manufacturers (Lapua included) and found the same problem. So I called the tumbler manufacturer and told them about it.
Vibratory cleaners have the same issue to some degree from cases shot peening each other, but stainless media increases the effect when the pins also peen the brass.
I hope you will find this information adequately "factual".

Bob

BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to offer the primer pocket diameter of virgin Norma Dasher brass.

 

[dmoran]

Donovan,
Here is how I learned about tumbling and neck hardness. I posted this same information a couple years ago when I first discovered it, but it's worth repeating because it involves safety.
I bought one of the tumblers that uses stainless steel pins and followed the manufacturers directions. Brass came out shinier than new. Wondered why the was a "flare" at the case mouth after resizing. Ignored the significantly greater than customary seating pressure and headed to the range. First shot sounded louder than normal and I noticed smoke coming from the action. Took a hammer to open the bold and my extractor and primer were nowhere to be found. I called it day and during the "post-mortem" investigation found the following. The fired primer pocket was .1780 and it took 15-20 whacks with the kinetic bullet puller to disassemble the unfired cases (normal would be 2 or 3).
I then checked for the same issue with several different caliber cases from numerous manufacturers (Lapua included) and found the same problem. So I called the tumbler manufacturer and told them about it.
Vibratory cleaners have the same issue to some degree from cases shot peening each other, but stainless media increases the effect when the pins also peen the brass.
I hope you will find this information adequately "factual".

Bob

BTW, I'm still waiting for someone to offer the primer pocket diameter of virgin Norma Dasher brass.

Generalizing brass polishing on a whole as work hardening/peening, do to a bad experience you had using SS-pins, would only be factual to your scenario and method used. Especially when there is lot's of ways and methods to polish brass.

With SS-pins, what you experienced is similar to what others have as well. But there is also remedies to the method that greatly stop it. Will leave that discussion for others who use SS-pins, I myself do not.

As to the primer-pocket diameters of the Shiraz/Norma 6Dasher brass, mine measure 0.171 new.
Donovan

 

[CaptainMal]

Primer pocket is .171" or less. I have a K & M pocket tool that is .172". Just tried multiple new pockets and NONE of them would allow that tool to even start.

I struggle to measure yet keep getting .1700 to .1705" and NEVER anything larger.

After a couple firings I then CAN tightly get that .172" tool to tightly fit those pockets, pockets that probably had high pressure shots initially. My conclusion is the primer pockets are tighter than Lapua and way tighter than once-fired commercial 223 brass or once-fired LC '14 brass I have run a pocket reamer in to remove the crimp.

The Norma primer pockets are G O O D.

 

[ASbobcat]

Primer pocket is .171" or less. I have a K & M pocket tool that is .172". Just tried multiple new pockets and NONE of them would allow that tool to even start.

I struggle to measure yet keep getting .1700 to .1705" and NEVER anything larger.

After a couple firings I then CAN tightly get that .172" tool to tightly fit those pockets, pockets that probably had high pressure shots initially. My conclusion is the primer pockets are tighter than Lapua and way tighter than once-fired commercial 223 brass or once-fired LC '14 brass I have run a pocket reamer in to remove the crimp.

The Norma primer pockets are G O O D.

Thanks for posting the dimension. I appreciate your taking the time. So you started at .1700-.1705 (I've never found virgin Lapua to have that much variation) and after a "couple of firings" you're already up to .1720? And you call that G O O D?
I load HOT. 2950fps from a standard 6BR with 105gr's is HOT, but my Lapua pp's don't budge even after 20 loading's.

 

[ASbobcat]

Generalizing brass polishing on a whole as work hardening/peening, do to a bad experience you had using SS-pins, would only be factual to your scenario and method used. Especially when there is lot's of ways and methods to polish brass.

With SS-pins, what you experienced is similar to what others have as well. But there is also remedies to the method that greatly stop it. Will leave that discussion for others who use SS-pins, I myself do not.

As to the primer-pocket diameters of the Shiraz/Norma 6Dasher brass, mine measure 0.171 new.
Donovan

Thank you for replying regarding the primer pocket measurement.
I had the same experience with vibrating corn cob media, but had "typer's cramp" from talking about the other, so didn't mention it. Ultrasonic has it's own issues (increased brittleness), so there is no free lunch in machine polishing brass. Because of that, I now clean and polish BY HAND. Do you think Norma hand polishes their brass?
In any CASE, I only needed to hear one issue to avoid buying this brass and that is the rim dimension inconsistency. The idea of having to switch between three different shell holders (as has been commonly reported in this thread) processing one box of virgin brass makes me chuckle.
Bob

 

[CaptainMal]

HEH?

ASbobcat. The Lapua primer pockets are .172" or larger. Too large is .175". .172" is TIGHT.

I have and shoot hundreds of pieces of Lapua brass. Just stuck that K&M primer pocket tool into multiple Lapua BR/Dasher primer pockets. It goes easily into every one. That same tool will only interference fit into a few of my largest Norma pockets. Mostly , it will not go into many and never goes into any of the unfired Norma ones. The Norma pockets are way tighter than my Lapua. I almost toyed with reaming the new pockets open a bit as they are so tight they seem to be crushing the primers first time in.

The numbers show the pockets are G O O D.

 

[ASbobcat]

Primer pocket is .171" or less. I have a K & M pocket tool that is .172". Just tried multiple new pockets and NONE of them would allow that tool to even start.

I struggle to measure yet keep getting .1700 to .1705" and NEVER anything larger.

After a couple firings I then CAN tightly get that .172" tool to tightly fit those pockets, pockets that probably had high pressure shots initially. My conclusion is the primer pockets are tighter than Lapua and way tighter than once-fired commercial 223 brass or once-fired LC '14 brass I have run a pocket reamer in to remove the crimp.

The Norma primer pockets are G O O D.

So we have one member reporting primer pockets of the new Norma Dasher brass "between .1700 and .1705" and another member reporting "EXACTLY .1710". Why should we expect them to have a consistent primer pocket when they don't have a consistent rim?
If they are "way" tighter then Lapua, then they are probably difficult to seat a primer in. Lapua has struck a balance between load-ability and snugness. Someone recently brought a new box of Nosler brass for me to help reload. WOW! It came in the most beautiful box. SUEDE box with GOLD lettering. Primers were very difficult to seat because they were .1700. Found out why when the brass was toast after 4 loads that were no problem for Winchester brass. Primer pockets spread .001 with each firing. So it appears they made the pockets narrow to compensate for soft brass. SOUND FAMILIAR?

That's some G O O O D brass!

BTW, there are five posts in the past week alone: "WTS: New Norma Dasher brass......."

 

[pburr]

So we have one member reporting primer pockets of the new Norma Dasher brass "between .1700 and .1705" and another member reporting "EXACTLY .1710". Why should we expect them to have a consistent primer pocket when they don't have a consistent rim?
If they are "way" tighter then Lapua, then they are probably difficult to seat a primer in. Lapua has struck a balance between load-ability and snugness. Someone recently brought a new box of Nosler brass for me to help reload. WOW! It came in the most beautiful box. SUEDE box with GOLD lettering. Primers were very difficult to seat because they were .1700. Found out why when the brass was toast after 4 loads that were no problem for Winchester brass. Primer pockets spread .001 with each firing. So it appears they made the pockets narrow to compensate for soft brass. SOUND FAMILIAR?

That's some G O O O D brass!

BTW, there are five posts in the past week alone: "WTS: New Norma Dasher brass......."

I kind of predicted this situation to myself a while back from another thread and now it seems the tightness of primer pockets is just another indication of the brass indeed being too soft. I believe it is softer to help with the forming of the 40 degree shoulder during production. That explains why the rims are thicker to help compensate for pressure and expansion. Tight primer pockets just reinforces that hypothesis. It migh just as well been better for Norma to keep the shoulders at 30-35 degrees but with a longer body than a BR case and allow the users to fireform out the shoulder with harder brass. I'll be curious to see how many real world loadings the brass will be able to tolerate.

 

[Cool Tool]

I kind of predicted this situation to myself a while back from another thread and now it seems the tightness of primer pockets is just another indication of the brass indeed being too soft. I believe it is softer to help with the forming of the 40 degree shoulder during production. That explains why the rims are thicker to help compensate for pressure and expansion. Tight primer pockets just reinforces that hypothesis. It migh just as well been better for Norma to keep the shoulders at 30-35 degrees but with a longer body than a BR case and allow the users to fireform out the shoulder with harder brass. I'll be curious to see how many real world loadings the brass will be able to tolerate.

Nah no way

 

[pburr]

Nah no way

Yes, way!
....but feel free to contribute your explanations about the brass being the way it is?