Labradar at Highpower matches

[243Mendoza]

Having used a Labradar over several 60 shot matches (and seeing others use them as well), I will guarantee you that absolutely no one is holding under 20 fps ES over a 60 shot match, no matter what their 5 or 10 shot samples are telling them. Anyone who claims different, I'd love to see the actual, collected data from the device they used...

I talked to a former AMU coach who saw me using the Labradar on the line at a local match. When he saw the data I had from 60 shots, he only laughed and said something along the lines of civilian data catching up to what the AMU has known for a long time with regards to the realities of ES.

I had measured 20shot-strings many times and saw little correlation on the target for NRA 600yd MR target. Have not done anything similar at 1000yd so the results may be different.

 

[DR1586]

I've heard that one manufacturer is working on a pic rail mount to be able to mount the lab radar on a service rifle for XTC. Should help you get centered up for standing by knowing ES, SD, ESP, HDTV and AC/DC.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

That's going to get in the way of the cappuccino machine, I'm afraid.

 

[dcali]

I agree with Greg that there isn't a (significant) real advantage, and using a radar on the line would probably be more hurt htan help as it would take away from more important tasks. It's more a matter of drawing a line and saying, "this is about you and your rifle. Practice how you will, but when it's match time, put all that stuff away and shoot."

As for timers and whatnot, an easy way to not be anal about it is simply to allow anything that offers no better function than a non-electronic equivalent. A mechanical kitchen timer does the same job as an iphone stop watch. Want to take notes on your ipad? Fine. Radars? Automated scope adjustments? Not fine. That's what I would do if I ran the world at least.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Some shooting buddies and I are brainstorming a more data driven approach to diagnosing dropped shots, including a LabRadar on the firing line, a video camera on the shooter, and a second camera on the wind flags (and maybe a Kestrel) if one camera cannot catch both the shooter and the flags. Together with a careful record of the position and score of each shot, this would permit diagnosing dropped shots with greater confidence than the current approaches (which often come down to guessing and speculation).

Of course, the motive is to assess reasons for dropped shots in after action assessments rather than during the match.

Often a velocity variation is blamed for shots hitting high or low, but I really suspect head and tail winds play a greater role than is commonly recognized. Shooter error also.

 

[Bob L.]

Often a velocity variation is blamed for shots hitting high or low, but I really suspect head and tail winds play a greater role than is commonly recognized. Shooter error also.

This

 

[Ned Ludd]

Often a velocity variation is blamed for shots hitting high or low, but I really suspect head and tail winds play a greater role than is commonly recognized. Shooter error also.

^^^ I second this. Head/tail winds at ranges with significant berms in between the firing and target lines can often give one fits with regard to the occasional dropped shot due to vertical. Recoil management issues with heavy bullets can do the same thing.

 

[MattPeetz]

^^^ I second this. Head/tail winds at ranges with significant berms in between the firing and target lines can often give one fits with regard to the occasional dropped shot due to vertical. Recoil management issues with heavy bullets can do the same thing.

Will 3rd this. I experienced this at my last match. Had a head wind and switched to a crosswind. I sighted in with the head wind and when the wind switched more to a cross wind I had a half minute of vertical(higher) I had had to account for at 1000.

 

[dcali]

I shoot in a tail wind a lot (that's just what happens at our range). 10 mph or so doesn't even move the shots out of the x ring at 600. Velocity variation and gun handling are what cause vertical, IMO. That's consistent with what a ballistics calculator will tell you as well.

Edit. By not moving out of the x ring, I'm only talking about the vertical contribution from the head wind.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I shoot in a tail wind a lot (that's just what happens at our range). 10 mph or so doesn't even move the shots out of the x ring at 600. Velocity variation and gun handling are what cause vertical, IMO. That's consistent with what a ballistics calculator will tell you as well.

Agreed,

At 600, head and tailwinds have pretty small effects in the absence of terrain deviations.

At 1k, the situation changes dramatically. Head and tailwinds become much more important despite being of smaller magnitude than mirage and orographic effects.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I may be the outlier here, but I find head/tail winds can be extremely challenging, even in the absence of unfavorable terrain features. If the wind is a constant 10 mph but rapidly switching from, let's say, 11:00 to 1:00, that means you're getting switches between half value, zero value, and half value from the other side. I agree the change of wind angle is extremely small. However, half value on a 10 mph wind for an F-TR rifle is more than enough to put you into the 9-ring at 600 yd, possibly even into the 8-ring depending on your load. When it's switching back and forth rapidly between half value (one side), zero value, and half value (other side) like head/tail winds usually do, the rapid jump in deflection value can be very troublesome to keep up with, for me at least.

 

[dcali]

I may be the outlier here, but I find head/tail winds can be extremely challenging, even in the absence of unfavorable terrain features. If the wind is a constant 10 mph but rapidly switching from, let's say, 11:00 to 1:00, that means you're getting switches between half value, zero value, and half value from the other side. I agree the change of wind angle is extremely small. However, half value on a 10 mph wind for an F-TR rifle is more than enough to put you into the 9-ring at 600 yd, possibly even into the 8-ring depending on your load. When it's switching back and forth rapidly between half value (one side), zero value, and half value (other side) like head/tail winds usually do, the rapid jump in deflection value can be very troublesome to keep up with, for me at least.

Absolutely. I did the math here: http://bisonballistics.com/articles/why-headwinds-are-more-difficult-than-crosswinds

It's just not the *vertical* that's challenging, it's the horizontal.

 

[MattPeetz]

I shoot in a tail wind a lot (that's just what happens at our range). 10 mph or so doesn't even move the shots out of the x ring at 600. Velocity variation and gun handling are what cause vertical, IMO. That's consistent with what a ballistics calculator will tell you as well.[/

I may be the outlier here, but I find head/tail winds can be extremely challenging, even in the absence of unfavorable terrain features. If the wind is a constant 10 mph but rapidly switching from, let's say, 11:00 to 1:00, that means you're getting switches between half value, zero value, and half value from the other side. I agree the change of wind angle is extremely small. However, half value on a 10 mph wind for an F-TR rifle is more than enough to put you into the 9-ring at 600 yd, possibly even into the 8-ring depending on your load. When it's switching back and forth rapidly between half value (one side), zero value, and half value (other side) like head/tail winds usually do, the rapid jump in deflection value can be very troublesome to keep up with, for me at least.

Add the terrain features Greg, and its even more challenging.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I'm fully aware of that. At the CA State LR last fall, we had some very mild conditions, maybe 2-4 mph from right at 6:00, very little fishtail. Anyone that's ever shot at Coalinga will know the range is completely flat out to the 1000 yd line. For that reason, the berms are much closer to bullet trajectory than they would be for a range that drops away in the middle. Even very slight changes in wind speed were enough to push shots high/low, particularly noticeable with the F-TR shooters (calibers). So, head/tail winds can be challenging due to the terrain features and/or the rapid change in wind value in a fishtail. I would personally much rather shoot in a full value crosswind than a head or tail wind.

 

[coldboreshot]

For me, it would be interesting to have the data for better diagnosing vertical spread. It's easy to blame the velocity. It would be nice to know for sure.

It would also be nice to have the velocity data on some of these hot July and August days so we're not just guessing.

I think this should be achieved during testing and practice. for the most part, if I have vertical issues, I can immediately
see on target when my group is not consistent. But this is why we do load testing, to resolve these issues before a match. I don't believe chrono's should be permitted at matches just the same as the previous shots registered on the e target should not remain either. The only shot that should remain is the last shot similar to a spotting disc on a conventionally scored target. As I have stated in other threads, the e targets were developed with the INTENT of replacing the task of manual target pulling (which I support) but I don't believe it was intended to change the face of scoring by utilizing many of the features as assists during a match. For practices and load development, absolutely.

 

[Papa Charlie]

I don't see how the information produced by LR would be a significant advantage over others. If you do have a round that is a flyer, it may be velocity or it may be environment, but in both cases you won't know what is coming next. If the load is off, then next most likely won't be, if the wind and your hold had an affect, conditions will most likely be different as well due to the time between shots.

I do like to see the overall affect of my rounds from the match. I used the LR during a November match. It dropped two shots but the other 64 tell me I am doing pretty good with my reloading.

Total Rounds = 64
Lowest Fps = 2647
Highest Fps = 2686
Average Fps = 2672.3
SD = 8.8
ES = 39

 

[Bindi2]

The wind drift chart showing bullet displacement from the crosshair is good. But what it dosent show or I have not found anywhere .. You adjust into centre then the wind drops to zero where does the bullet hit. Look at the 2oclock or any of the clocks and tell me. I have sort of a handle on several. Gusting wind is a big killer to me or drop offs.

Papa forget about the SD the ES is the one to work on. Lower than mid teens, single digit best.

 

[F Class John]

I'm only attaching this since the thread has been resurrected and the rules have changed since 2016 for anyone reading this.

 

[Jennb]

I've heard that one manufacturer is working on a pic rail mount to be able to mount the lab radar on a service rifle for XTC. Should help you get centered up for standing by knowing ES, SD, ESP, HDTV and AC/DC.

Anything that recoils with the rifle has to weigh with rifle.

 

[Medic505]

Anything that recoils with the rifle has to weigh with rifle.

I'm pretty sure DR1586's comment was made in jest because he left out HVAC.....