Labradar at Highpower matches

[effendude]

At the risk of sounding like an old sling shooter, how much farther is this going to go? What started out as a rifle, ammo and a shooter continues to evolve into more technology and equipment on the firing line. The proof in your reloading and shooting skill is on the target. I don't need a Labradar on the firing line to validate anything.

Scott

 

[dcali]

I would find it distracting. And I also think it violates the rules in spirit if not letter, and I would support a more explicit ban. Need to keep it all about the rifle, shooter and target, not gadgets and gizmos.

 

[ShootDots]

I would find it distracting. And I also think it violates the rules in spirit if not letter, and I would support a more explicit ban. Need to keep it all about the rifle, shooter and target, not gadgets and gizmos.

I understand what you and Effendude are saying. However, the Labradar only feeds you info AFTER the shot. It will not change the rounds on the line for the day. It MAY change something in your loading regimen for another match, but that will be "next time around". A few years ago I shot at Peru Rod and Gun Club in Northern New York. They did not have "pull targets", just shoot and go score after the 15 rounds fired. You had NO IDEA where each of your shots went. T-Rust me, it is A LOT harder under those circumstances, compared to shoot, pull / mark and up goes the target. You KNOW where the shot landed. That is a distinct advantage over shoot and score. So because most everywhere else has "more advanced" facilities, is that a reason to not use the advancements (per se)? The Labradar is always "after the fact" and has no bearing on the match itself. It is just "information feedback" no different than marking for every shot.

 

[calgarycanada]

I labradar is not offering an advantage than what's half a pound extra in my barrel going to offer me? IMHO it's the same thing. Rules are there to keep playing field level. If we are going to be like "use it if you can afford it " than we may as well get rid of all rules and let's use mechanical shooting systems and laser guided bullets lol
At same time doesn't matter what gadgets you give an average shooter like me, they are not going to make to top of the list. But when you consider shooters of similar skill any extra data point can be an advantage. Just my penny

 

[Cody Richardson]

I am for them, like everyone says, you only get feed back AFTER the shot. If anything this is going to help me in my reloading process. I don't own one but have borrowed a friends during a string at a match. I made no corrections based on it, it was nice to be able to correlate the flyers that I knew I held right had a velocity difference. But again, this makes no difference in any correction I make. For those who are worried about this being an equipment game, it has been since the first high power matches started. Everyone is always looking for that little edge to improve their scores. And if we really want to go back to the "spirit" of the match, lets require only M1's and 1903's with iron sights only. No one wants that. Technology is ever evolving, when it comes down to it YOU still have to load the most repeatable, consistent ammo you can, YOU have to make the wind calls and YOU have to break the shots.

 

[dcali]

I disagree that it has no impact. Shoot. Low 9. Look at the velocity - velocity is low, consistent with low 9. That's information you have that helps with your next shot. It's not a huge advantage, and I'd be more tolerant if none of the data was visible until firing for the day is complete. But looking at each shot? No, I think that's using technology to gain an advantage while shooting, and I'm a bit of a purist on that.

 

[Ned Ludd]

No chronograph will tell you the velocity of your next shot, only previous shots. Therefore, it cannot be used to predict the behavior of the next shot. Maybe it will have the same (similar) velocity to the last shot, maybe not. Either way, the chronograph is not giving an advantage because it cannot predict future events. If there is sufficient velocity variation in a shooter's load that they feel it necessary to use a chronograph, IMO they are already guaranteed to suffer the negative effect of velocity variation, regardless of what the chrono tells them after each shot. The best way to avoid this issue is to load ammo with the absolute minimal possible velocity variance that you can. Finding out you have velocity variance issues after each shot will not help your score, because you can't know whether the next round will have the same or different behavior. That is why having a chrono on the line would be a huge distraction for me, not an advantage.

 

[ShootDots]

If the spotter comes back a high ten, and the velocity is not high or low.... doesn't that give you feed back (communication) that there is a switch present? That could help your next shot would it not?

If you load at the range, like we are in 1000 yard benchrest, would the data not help you decide (communicate) if you need to make a change for tomorrow?

Sorry in advance, lol

Tom

Hey Tom.. In F-Class, usually at 1000 yards, people come with at least 75 already loaded rounds. Also, because of the high rate of extended fire, a "High 10" could mean a lot of things. If the shot was say shot 15 for record after 5+ rounds of sighters, it could mean: 1.) muscle fatigue setting in and less than a steady hold because of that; 2.) barrel getting hot (especially in the sun, in the summertime) and "walking" to a degree; or 3.) a wind change position; or even 3.) ammo getting hot in the chamber if you chambered the round too far in advance of firing!

 

[Bob L.]

I love my Labradar and use it often during practice sessions, but I would find it distracting to use during a match. Plus, being an F Open shooter, I have enough equipment to lug around without adding the Labradar to the mix.

 

[dmoran]

Hey Tom.. In F-Class, usually at 1000 yards, people come with at least 75 already loaded rounds. Also, because of the high rate of extended fire, a "High 10" could mean a lot of things. If the shot was say shot 15 for record after 5+ rounds of sighters, it could mean: 1.) muscle fatigue setting in and less than a steady hold because of that; 2.) barrel getting hot (especially in the sun, in the summertime) and "walking" to a degree; or 3.) a wind change position; or even 3.) ammo getting hot in the chamber if you chambered the round too far in advance of firing!

Ben -
I agree that it could mean the 4 things you listed. But the way I see it, it could also be a velocity extreme, or not a velocity extreme, which could aid/influence the shooters next hold.

It takes like 1 second to glance at the screen. It wouldn't be a distraction at all to me. I'm waiting on the target puller for longer then that any how (or at least back when I was shooting F-Class).
Donovan

 

[ShootDots]

Ben -
I agree that it could mean the 4 things you listed. But the way I see it, it could also be a velocity extreme, or not a velocity extreme, which could aid/influence the shooters next hold.

It takes like 1 second to glance at the screen. It wouldn't be a distraction at all to me. I'm waiting on the target puller for longer then that any how (or at least back when I was shooting F-Class).
Donovan

I agree 100 percent Donovan! With some of the target pullers I have had over the years, I could peek at the Labradar screen, load the next round at the bench, carry it over to mat, get set up and be ready before the target comes back up! LOL!!! I had a target puller so slow one time, the shooters around me were on shot 16 and 18 respectively, and I was only on sighter 3! Needless to say, the guy running the match came over of his own volition and gave me the necessary time to finish!

 

[Ned Ludd]

In an F-Class match there are so many possibilities that can lead to a dropped shot including wind conditions, velocity issues, bad trigger pull, recoil mis-management, etc. A low shot with a chronograph velocity reading that isn't low only tells you it was likely to be something other than velocity, not exactly what it actually was. Anything beyond that is pure speculation. Maybe you'll guess right, maybe you won't. As I pointed out earlier, if you're dropping shots to velocity variation of your load, you've already got much bigger problems than trying to second guess how the velocity of the next shot will behave. IMO, if you've done your load development and load validation properly, you don't need to think about the velocity while you're shooting, only the external conditions. That doesn't mean you can't get a slow/fast round every once in a while, it simply means you've done your best before the match ever started to minimize that possibility as best you can. Knowing a round hit low because it was slow after the fact tells you nothing about what the next round will do. Knowing it hit low because of something other than velocity only removes one possibility from a long list. If such an observation was able to convince the shooter of something about a specific wind condition, they'd still have to either wait it out, or have enough knowledge/skill to correct for it. I see little difference in this practice from chasing the spotter.

 

[sfinn]

In an F-Class match there are so many possibilities that can lead to a dropped shot including wind conditions, velocity issues, bad trigger pull, recoil mis-management, etc. A low shot with a chronograph velocity reading that isn't low only tells you it was likely to be something other than velocity, not exactly what it actually was. Anything beyond that is pure speculation. Maybe you'll guess right, maybe you won't. As I pointed out earlier, if you're dropping shots to velocity variation of your load, you've already got much bigger problems than trying to second guess how the velocity of the next shot will behave. IMO, if you've done your load development and load validation properly, you don't need to think about the velocity while you're shooting, only the external conditions. That doesn't mean you can't get a slow/fast round every once in a while, it simply means you've done your best before the match ever started to minimize that possibility as best you can. Knowing a round hit low because it was slow after the fact tells you nothing about what the next round will do. Knowing it hit low because of something other than velocity only removes one possibility from a long list. If such an observation was able to convince the shooter of something about a specific wind condition, they'd still have to either wait it out, or have enough knowledge/skill to correct for it. I see little difference in this practice from chasing the spotter.

In an F-Class match there are so many possibilities that can lead to a dropped shot including wind conditions, velocity issues, bad trigger pull, recoil mis-management, etc. A low shot with a chronograph velocity reading that isn't low only tells you it was likely to be something other than velocity, not exactly what it actually was. Anything beyond that is pure speculation. Maybe you'll guess right, maybe you won't. As I pointed out earlier, if you're dropping shots to velocity variation of your load, you've already got much bigger problems than trying to second guess how the velocity of the next shot will behave. IMO, if you've done your load development and load validation properly, you don't need to think about the velocity while you're shooting, only the external conditions. That doesn't mean you can't get a slow/fast round every once in a while, it simply means you've done your best before the match ever started to minimize that possibility as best you can. Knowing a round hit low because it was slow after the fact tells you nothing about what the next round will do. Knowing it hit low because of something other than velocity only removes one possibility from a long list. If such an observation was able to convince the shooter of something about a specific wind condition, they'd still have to either wait it out, or have enough knowledge/skill to correct for it. I see little difference in this practice from chasing the spotter.

Ok, I've got to get my two cents in on this. As Keith has said, The NRA Highgpower rules do not allow electronic devices on the firing line. The Radar is a electronic device giving the shooter instant feedback as to the performance of the last round. It would be considered a coaching aid. For example, I have a high shot. Do I hold low for the next? Nah, the chromo says the shot was out of norm. I'm shooting center on the next shot. Don't think the chrono will be any good for wind however. Now if the the screen is covered, that may be fine. It's up to the match director to make that decision. Now to open a can of worms, what if a fellow wins the match by x's or breaks a national record? Can you visualize that mess of Protests. What would the NRA say about the electronic devise on the line?

 

[Joe Salt]

I see little difference in this practice from chasing the spotter.

So if you want a good group don't chase the spotter. You could possibly have a good score, but I always try for a better score.

Joe Salt

 

[Kyle Schultz]

Ok, I've got to get my two cents in on this. As Keith has said, The NRA Highgpower rules do not allow electronic devices on the firing line...

Then how is legal for a shooter to have an electronic countdown timer on the line? I see it all the time by world-ranked shooters. How is that any different than me starting the stopwatch function on my Casio wristwatch?

To be clear, I don't care but where do you draw the line?

 

[Ned Ludd]

Nowhere in that post did I advocate chasing the spotter. That's usually a really good way to lose more points than necessary, especially under rapidly changing conditions. Nor was I advocating using a chrono during a match. I was simply trying to explain why I don't think using one is an advantage. Anyone that knows anything at all about statistics and probabilities will understand exactly what I said and why. There is no such thing as "instantaneous" feedback. The more rapidly the conditions are changing, the less "instantaneous" any feedback will be. All I said was that previous velocity data cannot be used to predict the velocity of the next shot. That is a simple fact, therefore the information imparted from knowing the velocity of your last shot may be of little use for the next shot, especially if the wind condition has changed. I'm a firm believer that a pro-active approach is the best. In other words, trying to estimate the wind conditions as best you can so you can adjust your POA prior to sending your next shot. IMO, the best indicators for this are the flags and/or mirage. Anything that draws your attention away from reading the current wind conditions is unlikely to be an advantage, and under challenging and rapidly changing wind conditions, sometimes even a rapid glance away from one of your indicators may be enough for you to lose track of the condition. Most of the better shooters I know are watching the flags and/or mirage while waiting for their target to come back up, and it should not be viewed as "down time". Rather, it is an opportunity to continually monitor possible wind changes. So I have no issues at all with someone else using a chrono on the line. Nor would I have any problem whatsoever with any record set by someone using one while they were shooting it.

From the example given above, if you posted a high shot and the chrono indicated the velocity was high, would that really help you on the next shot? No, for a couple reasons. First, the velocity would need to be quite high compared to the average to push your shot high. For a .308 shooting 185s, it would have to be in the neighborhood of 20 fps faster to put you out of the 10-ring. If your load has that kind of ES/SD, you have bigger problems than monitoring the velocity after each shot and trying to match it to what you saw on the target. This is because the velocity you just read has no bearing whatsoever on the velocity of the next round. Further, if your load has a 20+ fps ES, the chances the velocity of your next shot are dramatically different than the last are very good. So you can't make any prediction as to what the next shot velocity will be, or use it to your advantage in terms of hold. This is simple probability, and is exactly the reason most F-Class shooters strive to keep their ES below 10 fps whenever possible, because ES below 10 fps means your load should hold X-ring vertical, barring any wind effects. If you are absolutely confident that your load velocity isn't varying more than 10 fps or so, then I would agree that a high/low shot associated with a high/low velocity would be useful information. Unfortunately, if you know your ES is that good, you really have no need for the chrono. By the same reasoning, if you do happen see a velocity excursion of 15-20 fps (or more) from the norm during a match, that tells you immediately that your load velocity isn't nearly as consistent as you thought it was. That means you have no idea how far off the norm the next shot will be, it might also be high, or it might be average, or it might be low. Therefore, you can't use the velocity of the previous shot to predict the next. It simply doesn't work that way.

If someone feels better using their Labradar during a match, more power to them. I do happen to believe in the power of positive thinking and if it builds your confidence, that is not a bad thing. However, probability is not on the side of a chrono providing a significant advantage during a match. It simply isn't. IMO, the better approach is to first make every effort to minimize the ES/SD of your load prior to a match through good reloading techniques, so you can have confidence you're not getting large velocity excursions during a string. Second, do everything possible to improve your wind reading skills so that you can effectively use the flags and mirage pro-actively to make the best wind call possible just prior to sending your shot. Using "old" information such as chasing the spotter, or the velocity of your last shot is not likely to be beneficial to your score under rapidly changing conditions.

 

[Joe Salt]

TOM I KNOW THAT! Just stating a fact try it sometime.

Joe Salt

 

[sfinn]

Then how is legal for a shooter to have an electronic countdown timer on the line? I see it all the time by world-ranked shooters. How is that any different than me starting the stopwatch function on my Casio wristwatch?

To be clear, I don't care but where do you draw the line?

Kyle, you have a very valid question regarding an electronic timer on the line. I have shot NRA Highpower rifle since around 1983 on and transitioned to F Class several years ago. In that time I have seen some changes in the sport. I believe the timers have changed from the old windup type and evolved to the electronic. Since a timer is a timer it's been a gentleman agreement to allow electronic on the line. The shooter has the right to keep the time. Even to ask the line official how much time is left.
Steve

 

[Jay Christopherson]

From the example given above, if you posted a high shot and the chrono indicated the velocity was high, would that really help you on the next shot? No, for a couple reasons. First, the velocity would need to be quite high compared to the average to push your shot high. For a .308 shooting 185s, it would have to be in the neighborhood of 20 fps faster to put you out of the 10-ring. If your load has that kind of ES/SD, you have bigger problems than monitoring the velocity after each shot and trying to match it to what you saw on the target. This is because the velocity you just read has no bearing whatsoever on the velocity of the next round. Further, if your load has a 20+ fps ES, the chances the velocity of your next shot are dramatically different than the last are very good. So you can't make any prediction as to what the next shot velocity will be, or use it to your advantage in terms of hold. This is simple probability, and is exactly the reason most F-Class shooters strive to keep their ES below 10 fps whenever possible, because ES below 10 fps means your load should hold X-ring vertical, barring any wind effects. If you are absolutely confident that your load velocity isn't varying more than 10 fps or so, then I would agree that a high/low shot associated with a high/low velocity would be useful information. Unfortunately, if you know your ES is that good, you really have no need for the chrono. By the same reasoning, if you do happen see a velocity excursion of 15-20 fps (or more) from the norm during a match, that tells you immediately that your load velocity isn't nearly as consistent as you thought it was. That means you have no idea how far off the norm the next shot will be, it might also be high, or it might be average, or it might be low. Therefore, you can't use the velocity of the previous shot to predict the next. It simply doesn't work that way.

Having used a Labradar over several 60 shot matches (and seeing others use them as well), I will guarantee you that absolutely no one is holding under 20 fps ES over a 60 shot match, no matter what their 5 or 10 shot samples are telling them. Anyone who claims different, I'd love to see the actual, collected data from the device they used...

I talked to a former AMU coach who saw me using the Labradar on the line at a local match. When he saw the data I had from 60 shots, he only laughed and said something along the lines of civilian data catching up to what the AMU has known for a long time with regards to the realities of ES.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Having used a Labradar over several 60 shot matches (and seeing others use them as well), I will guarantee you that absolutely no one is holding under 20 fps ES over a 60 shot match, no matter what their 5 or 10 shot samples are telling them. Anyone who claims different, I'd love to see the actual, collected data from the device they used...

I talked to a former AMU armorer (I think that's the term, right?) who saw me using the Labradar on the line at a local match. When he saw the data I had from 60 shots, he only laughed and said something along the lines of civilian data catching up to what the AMU has known for a long time with regards to the realities of ES.

Jay, I fully understand this. I used those values as an example that would likely be more familiar to the majority of people reading this that aren't normally recording 60+ shot velocity strings. However, if someone can routinely generate 10 fps ES from a number of smaller shot strings, the likelihood that their ES for a 60+ shot string will be significantly smaller than someone that routinely obtains 20 fps (or greater) ES values from similar smaller shot strings is extremely high. Whatever ES value someone typically obtains from smaller strings will most likely only get larger as the sample size increases.

Further, none of that changes the fact that the last shot velocity measured cannot be used to accurately predict the velocity of the next shot other than in terms of probabilities derived from previous strings, the longer of which I agree is better. I also agree with you that having such data would be of significant long term benefit. I simply don't believe it provides such benefits during the course of a match as a predictive tool for future individual shots based on the previous shot velocity. If you know your typical ES for 60+ shot strings of fire shot at match cadence under comparable environmental conditions, you already know as much as you ever will about the potential range of behavior of individual shots in an actual match. Using a chrono on the line will not markedly improve someone's ability to predict the velocity of future shots. Because of that, there is a statistical limit on what information can be extrapolated to a future shot using data derived from a previous shot.