Fireform with "heavy" bullets...

[Brians356]

So don;t think it can't happen.

With all due respect, I never said such reloading bench incidents can't happen! (Quote please?)

What I have been trying to say is that using pistol powder to foreform a case sans bullet is not reckless or inherently dangerous. It's neither fair nor reasonable to imply it is dangerous simply because a powder mix-up on the reloading bench is more likely. It's just as likely for different rifle powders to get confused on the bench, and a rifle blown up.

There's sensible and cautious, and there's also paranoid and fixated.
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[BartsBullets]

With all due respect, I never said such a reloading bench incidents can't happen! (Quote please?)

What I have been trying to say is that using pistol powder to foreform a case sans bullet is not reckless or inherently dangerous. It's neither fair nor reasonable to imply it is dangerous simply because a powder mix-up on the reloading bench is more likely. It's just as likely for different rifle powders to get confused on the bench, and a rifle blown up.

There's sensible and cautious, and there's also paranoid and fixated.
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There are a lot of different scenarios were loading with pistol powder for fireforming can go bad Like I said . "it has and it will again. "

It does work. It's just not for me. Others need to really think about how they use it and just be very careful.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I just don't like the method. What do you save a few bucks?


Bart

 

[Brians356]

There are a lot of different scenarios were loading with pistol powder for fireforming can go bad Like I said . "it has and it will again. "

An example or two would be helpful, as I'm struggling to grasp the magnitude of the danger.

I'm not saying you are wrong.

That's a relief. If it works, it works. And Mr Howell, if he were alive, would be relieved to know as well.

I just don't like the method. What do you save a few bucks?

"Time is money."

Sure, I save a few bucks on bullets. But as a business owner (and a homeowner) my time is worth a whole lot more. Futzing around with tissue wads, inert filler (I used corn grits), and wax neck plugs takes too much time when a little extra powder, by itself, works just as well.

Not discussed heretofore is the issue of cleanup - small clumps of COW or grits tends to remain stuck inside the cases. Unlike some chaps around here, I don't enjoy bathing and tumbling fired cases into sparkling jewelry. After fireforming, I prefer going straight to loading hunting ammo without having to clean the cases at all if I choose, beyond wiping any grime or soot off the outside of the cases with a rag. Plus, if fireforming with bullets, there's some likelihood of copper fouling in the bore to be removed.
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[BartsBullets]

An example or two would be helpful, as I'm struggling to grasp the magnitude of the danger.



That's a relief. If it works, it works. And Mr Howell, if he were alive, would be relieved to know as well.



"Time is money."

Sure, I save a few bucks on bullets. But as a business owner (and a homeowner) my time is worth a whole lot more. Futzing around with tissue wads, inert filler (I used corn grits), and wax neck plugs takes too much time when a little extra powder, by itself, works just as well.

Not discussed heretofore is the issue of cleanup - small clumps of COW or grits tends to remain stuck inside the cases. Unlike some chaps around here, I don't enjoy bathing and tumbling fired cases into sparkling jewelry. After fireforming, I prefer going straight to loading hunting ammo without having to clean the cases at all if I choose, outside of wiping any grime or soot off the outside of the cases with a rag. Plus, if fireforming with bullets, there's some likelihood of copper fouling in the bore to be removed.
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Brians,

If you can't understand the possibility of a powder mix up. I can't fix that. So just get off of it.
You've found a little trick and you are spouting all of its virtues. However to your own admission you can't see where there could be a problem. I have seen it happen in front of my very eyes twice. It changes your perspective.

Pistol powder has NO PLACE even in the same room with my rifle reloading equipment.

I'm not here to change your mind. I'm just letting others know that they can get hurt if they don't pay close attention. Something that apparently eludes you.

You are a true believer in your method use it and have fun. Hopefully you never screw it up!

BTW...I've never heard of Mr Howell but if you'd like to read a book about accuracy shooting get Tony Boyer's. I helped write that one.


Bart

 

[Brians356]

If you can't understand the possibility of a powder mix up. I can't fix that. So just get off of it.

You drone on as if you don't hear me. I acknowledge the possibility of a powder mix-up.

You've found a little trick and you are spouting all of its virtues.

I've found a little trick? You flatter me, sir!

However to your own admission you can't see where there could be a problem.

Not with the bulletless fireforming itself, that's quite true. I admit it.

I have seen it happen in front of my very eyes twice. It changes your perspective.

You've seen folks losing control of their reloading environment. Fair enough. Have you seen anyone blow up a rifle by discharging a bulletless fireforming round?

Pistol powder has NO PLACE even in the same room with my rifle reloading equipment.

It's dawning on me that, for you, that's indeed a very wise rule.

I'm not here to change your mind.

Hmmm ...

I'm just letting others know that they can get hurt if they don't pay close attention. Something that apparently eludes you.

That's unfair. Again, I ask you to point out where I have ever eschewed paying attention while loading cartridges.

You are a true believer in your method use it and have fun.

You forgot the "wild-eyed" part.

At the risk of repeating myself, it's not my method. Bulletless fireforming has been popular for many decades, and was employed before I was born by innovators such as Ken Howell, Elmer Keith, Iver Henriksen, Ed Matunas, Frank Barnes and others. Probably dozens of readers of this very thread have employed the method. And there is simply no other way to form some wildcat cases.

BTW...I've never heard of Mr Howell but if you'd like to read a book about accuracy shooting get Tony Boyer's. I helped write that one.

Thanks for the tip!

I have an extra signed copy of Ken Howell's encyclopedic "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges For Rifles and Handguns" which I had given my late father. I would be willing to part with it if you're interested. They sell for upwards of $200 on Amazon.com.
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[BartsBullets]

You drone on as if you don't hear me. I acknowledge the possibility of a powder mix-up.



I've found a little trick? You flatter me, sir!



Not with the bulletless fireforming itself, that's quite true. I admit it.



You've seen folks losing control of their reloading environment. Fair enough. Have you seen anyone blow up a rifle by discharging a bulletless fireforming round?



It's dawning on me that, for you, that's indeed a very wise rule.



Hmmm ...



That's unfair. Again, I ask you to point out where I have ever eschewed paying attention while loading cartridges.



You forgot the "wild-eyed" part.

At the risk of repeating myself, it's not my method. Bulletless fireforming has been popular for many decades, and was employed before I was born by innovators such as Ken Howell, Elmer Keith, Iver Henriksen, Ed Matunas, Frank Barnes and others. Probably dozens of readers of this very thread have employed the method. And there's is simply no other way to form some wildcat cases.



Thanks for the tip!

I have an extra signed copy of Ken Howell's encyclopedic "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges For Rifles and Handguns" which I had given my late father. I would be willing to part with it if you're interested. It sells for upwards of $200 on Amazon.com.
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You don't get it! That's ok! You learned a trick and you want to share it with all your virtual buddies. Hey I get it! Spread your knowledge and experience! Keep punching the key board. Your obviously more qualified then anyone here.

For me I just finished fireforming 200 pieces of brass. Did it the old fashioned way. No pistol powder for me! Now, I'm Loading the camper to go to a real Match. With real shooters!

As for the Post

I'm sure those that are Following the thread understand why I'm saying use caution. Even if you can't

Bart

 

[Brians356]

Bart, I'm sure you're a good fellow, and I know of you and respect your accomplishments and contributions from afar. But your insistence that I somehow encourage a cavalier approach towards safety at the reloading bench is both unfair and unfounded.

Having said that, it occurs to me that, since precise charge weight is not required, one could (inside the isolated Pistol Reloading Facility, of course) determine the appropriate Lee powder dipper to use for the bulletless pistol powder charge (which would require introducing a single empty unprimed rifle cartridge case into the Pistol Reloading Facility for a short time, a small enough concession). Then one could fetch the rifle and empty unprimed rifle cases from the isolated Rifle Reloading Facility and load them into the transport vehicle. Then the pistol primers, pistol powder, and a hand primer tool could be fetched from the Pistol Reloading Facility and loaded into the vehicle. After arriving at the remote fireforming site, each case could (one at a time) be primed, charged with powder using the powder dipper, and immediately fireformed. Afterwards the rifle and pistol components would be carefully resegregated back into their respective isolated reloading facilities. Would this approach alleviate some of your concern for the welfare of the persons involved?
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[P72]

Let's see - I just filled a 6mm AI fired case with 43.5 grains of HP38 - a low density flaky pistol powder. Should I have started with 4.35 grains or 10% for an initial FF load it probably would not be enough making me increase the load. The consideration being the chamber volume vs. non-fire-formed case. The result should be nice sharp shoulders vs. rounded shoulders.

Then there is the situation where the cases to be fire-formed need to be transferred to the place where they will be chambered then fired. Fixing a wax plug inside the neck mouth on top of the filler prevents the entire works from being dumped - ever drop a loaded round?

Next there is my use of plain ordinary rice for a filler, this is much cleaner then using COW or possibly grits - would any sugar contained in the COW or whatever promote carbon deposits inside the bore. After each shot the chamber is quickly brushed out using a .270 bronze brush with a strip of paper towel twisted around it.

Consideration must be given to the extremely large volumes of gas that are generated by ignition of smokeless powder in a very short time and a fast burning pistol powder does not have the progressive burning characteristics of much slower burning rifle powers. This makes me believe that explosively dangerous pressures can be generated with or without some 4-5 grains of filler.

Various lubricants have certain pressure limitations that when exceeded result in lubrication failure - this might be a factor of film strength. This would make me think that upon reaching some 15 thousand psi or whatever the pressure would be to expand a case into a chamber the oil or whatever applied to the case might have no benefits as far as allowing the case to completely expand in all directions.

Firing a case with excessive head space promotes head separations - that is why I have all my improved chambers made slightly short - a common practice with some gun smiths. My 6mm AI chamber was short enough to make closing the bolt somewhat of an effort resulting in zippo head space and positive primer ignition.

This encourages me to research the pressure/lubrication qualities of various oils.

 

[M-61]

From P72:
"Various lubricants have certain pressure limitations that when exceeded result in lubrication failure - this might be a factor of film strength. This would make me think that upon reaching some 15 thousand psi or whatever the pressure would be to expand a case into a chamber the oil or whatever applied to the case might have no benefits as far as allowing the case to completely expand in all directions."

Within the last year there was a very interesting post regarding any lube on a case vs none. I think it was from Bigedp51 (?) regarding the 'proofing' of military actions by the Brits. I can not find it so I am reluctant to say what the determination was other than the results showed surprising results with cases that had lube on them. Naturally this involved Lee Enfields. Maybe someone can find this but I can't.

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart, I'm sure you're a good fellow, and I know of you and respect your accomplishments and contributions from afar. But your insistence that I somehow encourage a cavalier approach towards safety at the reloading bench is both unfair and unfounded.

Having said that, it occurs to me that, since precise charge weight is not required, one could (inside the isolated Pistol Reloading Facility, of course) determine the appropriate Lee powder dipper to use for the bulletless pistol powder charge (which would require introducing a single empty unprimed rifle cartridge case into the Pistol Reloading Facility for a short time, a small enough concession). Then one could fetch the rifle and empty unprimed rifle cases from the isolated Rifle Reloading Facility and load them into the transport vehicle. Then the pistol primers, pistol powder, and a hand primer tool could be fetched from the Pistol Reloading Facility and loaded into the vehicle. After arriving at the remote fireforming site, each case could (one at a time) be primed, charged with powder using the powder dipper, and immediately fireformed. Afterwards the rifle and pistol components would be carefully resegregated back into their respective isolated reloading facilities. Would this approach alleviate some of your concern for the welfare of the persons involved?
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Hey lets dail it back a little.

1. I 100% agree that using pistol powder without a bullet works and works very well. I agree there is no danger as long as you never stick a bullet on top of that pistol powder. I've had friends doing it for years.

But just like life "Shit Happens".
The crowd I mostly run with are short range benchrest shooters. We reload at the range after every group. So for one match I might be loading out of my camper. The next match it might be on a table in a loading barn or club house. Our reloading equipment is like a moble meth lab! Right now In my camper I have V133, Lt32, Lt30, varget and some reloader 15. It's organized chaos for most of us.

Now if you throw in a guy that needs to fireform some cases at the range and he has a bottle of pistol powder. The potential for screwing up just increased. It's just a lot to keep up with. It is so easy to get distracted or in a hurry. Not to mention the avg shooter is probably 65+ and the old memory isn't what it use to be.

99 times out of a 100 a guy won't have a problem. It's just that one time when he screws up.

I've seen it happen! It's not pretty.

 

[Brians356]

From P72:
"Various lubricants have certain pressure limitations that when exceeded result in lubrication failure - this might be a factor of film strength. This would make me think that upon reaching some 15 thousand psi or whatever the pressure would be to expand a case into a chamber the oil or whatever applied to the case might have no benefits as far as allowing the case to completely expand in all directions."

Within the last year there was a very interesting post regarding any lube on a case vs none. I think it was from Bigedp51 (?) regarding the 'proofing' of military actions by the Brits. I can not find it so I am reluctant to say what the determination was other than the results showed surprising results with cases that had lube on them. Naturally this involved Lee Enfields. Maybe someone can find this but I can't.

Just to be 100% clear, I would never lube and discharge a normal loaded cartridge with a bullet seated. According to my feeble understanding, the case body needs to expand and "grip" the chamber to an extent in order to moderate the recoil force on the bolt face, and also minimize case web stretching.

I have only ever lubed a case for fireforming "bulletless" in an AI chamber insufficiently shortened WRT headspace to allow a proper crush fit at the neck/shoulder junction. After experimentation, I discovered bulletless forming, with light case lube and a sufficient charge of Bullseye, produced a perfectly formed AI case. YMMV.
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[Brians356]

Hey lets dail it back a little.

1. I 100% agree that using pistol powder without a bullet works and works very well. I agree there is no danger as long as you never stick a bullet on top of that pistol powder. I've had friends doing it for years.

But just like life "Shit Happens".
The crowd I mostly run with are short range benchrest shooters. We reload at the range after every group. So for one match I might be loading out of my camper. The next match it might be on a table in a loading barn or club house. Our reloading equipment is like a moble meth lab! Right now In my camper I have V133, Lt32, Lt30, varget and some reloader 15. It's organized chaos for most of us.

Now if you throw in a guy that needs to fireform some cases at the range and he has a bottle of pistol powder. The potential for screwing up just increased. It's just a lot to keep up with. It is so easy to get distracted or in a hurry. Not to mention the avg shooter is probably 65+ and the old memory isn't what it use to be.

99 times out of a 100 a guy won't have a problem. It's just that one time when he screws up.

I've seen it happen! It's not pretty.

Bart, I agree 100% with all that, and now realize that your typical reloading domain and mine are completely different. Thanks for the clarification and your defusing of what should never have been such a vociferous discussion. If ever I get the opportunity, I'm buying the first round of drinks.
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[Shynloco]

Though interesting, I doubt anybody is changing the way in which they will fireform their brass. For me, the COW will remain in the kitchen panty or on the breakfast table and not on my reloading bench.

Alex

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart, I agree 100% with all that, and now realize that your typical reloading domain and mine are completely different. Thanks for the clarification and your defusing of what should never have been such a vociferous discussion. If ever I get the opportunity, I'm buying the first round of drinks.
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No Problem! Im glad we cleared that up!

Bart

 

[P72]

I would imagine that upon ignition the pressure generated by rapidly expanding gasses would be applied on every surface of the case - like sides and back - every inner surface would be subjected to pressure including the base of the cartridge against the bolt face. Should the elastic limits of the brass be exceeded primer pockets would enlarge and a case head separation might occur if the head space was excessive.

The lubrication business is of interest - I don't have a clue of what pressures will cause a loss of lubricant film strength. I do know that various lubricants are formulated the allow them to be used in applications where they are subject to impact.

Attached is a link regarding lubricated cartridges.

www.dtic.mil/ndia/2011ballistics/11826.pdf

Apparently oil on brass increases bolt thrust force.

I have my doubts that minimum body taper cartridges offer mechanical advantages as far as being able to withstand pressures - the pressure is applied in all directions and brass clinging to chamber walls at 63 thousand psi is not going to keep the base of the cartridge from expanding into the bolt face but there probably is some difference regarding bolt thrust force.

 

[M-61]

This clipped from P72's supplied link:

4. Lubrication in Chamber can increase bolt face load an additional 2000 lbs (µ=0.05), 3000 lbs (µ near zero)
zero)
DO NOT ALLOW LUBRICATION TO COME BETWEEN CARTIDGE CASE AND CHAMBER

 

[XBBR Shooter]

Brians,

[...]

BTW... I've never heard of Mr Howell but if you'd like to read a book about accuracy shooting get Tony Boyer's. I helped write that one.


Bart

Really??? You must be very young, or...

He is far more famous and well known than Tony Boyer.

Maybe it is a case of benchrest myophothy, a very severe illness. It inhibits one's ability to learn and grow in knowledge.

 

[P72]

Lots of times I am wrong but defending the indefensible goes nowhere. I try not to trade on other's successes or failures. I really don't have a clue who some of these people are but would evaluate their opinions using an assessment of their knowledge of sciences combined with successes as shooters/competitors.

I also learned to not make "snarky" comments at an early age to avoid getting beat up. Is this thread about fire-forming or some bench rest fame or what ever?

I remember reading about failure of lubricants under extreme pressures in various gun publications but the dtic test run with full pressure loads confirmed what many expected. I was not able to find any actual pressures where lubricants failed.

At one time I did get sort of liberal on fire-forming charges using pistol powder and experienced some resistance in lifting the bolt and the primer pocket was slightly opened up - I quit right there but the same thing could have happened with a real bullet and rifle powder. As I can best remember Accurate #2, COW filler and TP were used with a CCI 200 primer. I would guess should I have put a much greater charge of the Accurate #2 real damage would have occurred. I was amazed at the large amounts of pressures that were generated by small amounts of Accurate #2 with no air space in the case, it being stuffed full or COW and TP.

 

[BartsBullets]

Really??? You must be very young, or...

He is far more famous and well known than Tony Boyer.

Maybe it is a case of benchrest myophothy, a very severe illness. It inhibits one's ability to learn and grow in knowledge.

Well Paul,

That could be! Please enlighten me with your shooting knowledge. I can use all the help I can get.

 

[XBBR Shooter]

Well Paul,

That could be! Please enlighten me with your shooting knowledge. I can use all the help I can get.

Well, since this thread is about case forming, not benchrest, I would suggest you start with some basic reading on case forming...

"Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges For Rifles and Handguns" by Ken Howell