Rem 700 223 Bolt and Mini M16 extractor install?

[GAnderson]

I have a 20VT built off of a standard 223 Bolt and as most already know, case extraction is a problem unless you have an actual Fireball bolt. I have been reading up on the possibility of a mini 16 extractor install but information varies widely...some say it cannot be done, some say it's not a problem, some say don't do it because it will take away the integrity of the 700 bolt...anybody have any real world experience with such an install? I know a Sako extractor will work but the position of that extractor lends itself to ejecting the cartridge more upward and into your turret on the scope and dropping it back into the action...this does not seem to be the case with the mini 16 from what I have read and is why I am thinking of the mini 16, but reading thru the archives it seems to be quite a debate as to whether or not it can be done. Any gunsmiths set up to do this? Thanks

Gene

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The Sako and Mini 16 will have the same ejection angle. A mini16 can be installed on your bolt, you just make the cut deeper. You are removing a lot of material, but its been done.

 

[GAnderson]

Alex, thanks for the reply...another question, the m16 seems to be used quite often on the 308 size bolt without much debate...I would assume the same amount of bolt material would be removed from it as would be removed from the 223 size bolt??...so is the 223 bolt of different thickness than a 308 bolt??...obviously the diameters are different, but don't know about material thickness. I do have an M16 installed on a 308 bolt and it "seems" to eject brass more outward and clears the scope turret without any issues...the one rifle that I had a Sako installed on always hit the turret...don't know if this is because of maybe differences in the physical properties of the extractors or what, but the archived information that I read seemed to indicate the m16 "corrected" the turret problem as well. Appreciate the response(s)...it's obvious that I don't know much about these(just what I have read) and just want to see if it is the right thing to do. I don't see PT&G listing a "fireball" bolt or I would pursue that option. Thanks

Gene

 

[Gundoktr]

Alex, thanks for the reply...another question, the m16 seems to be used quite often on the 308 size bolt without much debate...I would assume the same amount of bolt material would be removed from it as would be removed from the 223 size bolt??...so is the 223 bolt of different thickness than a 308 bolt??...obviously the diameters are different, but don't know about material thickness. I do have an M16 installed on a 308 bolt and it "seems" to eject brass more outward and clears the scope turret without any issues...the one rifle that I had a Sako installed on always hit the turret...don't know if this is because of maybe differences in the physical properties of the extractors or what, but the archived information that I read seemed to indicate the m16 "corrected" the turret problem as well. Appreciate the response(s)...it's obvious that I don't know much about these(just what I have read) and just want to see if it is the right thing to do. I don't see PT&G listing a "fireball" bolt or I would pursue that option. Thanks

Gene

I have done a number of the sako conversions, one notably on the fireball. It solved the ejection problem. The metal removal is deeper and more metal removed on the 223 case because of the head size of the case

 

[DaveTooley]

Alex is correct. The ejection angle is the same with either extractor. In regards to the amount of material removed it's applies only to the depth of the cut in the bolt. I have never heard about a specific bolt for a 221 FB. Some extractor installs create an ejection issue where short cases fall out from under the extractor before the case reaches the loading port.

Are you having extraction or ejection problems?

 

[GAnderson]

Hi Dave, the factory remington extractor position on a fireball bolt is located differently than on a standard 223 size bolt...if you build a fireball variant on a standard 223 bolt, the brass is extracted, but then due to the shortness of the fireball brass, the ejection process happens kind of like you described...before the casing clears the receiver loading port, the fired casing just drops off in the action...(I think that is how it is explained). Yes, the sako extractor will fix this issue but another issue then seems to often arise...due to the upward angle of ejection with the sako, the ejected brass often times hits the windage turret on the scope and falls back into the receiver...from what I have read, the m16 extractor seems to clear the windage turret on the scope. I can only confirm this to be true on the M16 that I have installed on a 308 size bolt...the cartridges that it ejects never hits the windage turret...the one sako extractor I had installed on a 20 Tactical always hit the windage turret...I even tried 3 different scopes to try to get the casing to clear the turret but was not successful. Was hoping to get a determination as to whether an m16 could safely be installed in a 223 size bolt without compromising the integrity of the bolt and "positively" extract and eject the fired casing...without hitting the windage turret. Thanks again for all the responses.

Gene

 

[boltfluter]

I would check with Gre Tan rifles. I believe he sells m16 extractors that have a small relief ground on the extractor to lower the ejection angle. Good luck and keep us posted.

Paul

www.boltfluting.com

 

[KMart]

This info is not to start any arguments as to the installation of a mini 16 extractor on a 223 bolt. Just info.
I sent a 223 bolt to Gretan to have a mini 16 extractor installed. A few days later, Greg called me and said that he was not able to install a mini 16 on a 223 700 Remington bolt but needed to install a Sako instead.
I didn't question his knowledge or reasons why. I just went with what he said and got the Sako

 

[boltfluter]

This info is not to start any arguments as to the installation of a mini 16 extractor on a 223 bolt. Just info.
I sent a 223 bolt to Gretan to have a mini 16 extractor installed. A few days later, Greg called me and said that he was not able to install a mini 16 on a 223 700 Remington bolt but needed to install a Sako instead.
I didn't question his knowledge or reasons why. I just went with what he said and got the Sako

Good to know. Thanks for the scoop.

Paul

www.boltfluting.com

 

[fredo]

Yep, Greg does Sakos.

Jon Addis @ Area419 does a mini M16, if you want that. Considering one for my 6x45AI...

Video, courtesy of Area 419

 

[DickE]

Extend the groove(in the back) cut in the ejector, so it extends out further, giving it more angle to the empty case.

 

[GAnderson]

Thanks to all for the replies. Can anyone tell me if PT&G makes a Rem 700 bolt with the extractor positioned correctly for the fireball? It is hard to get thru to an actual technician at PT&G that would understand the differences and the CS personnel don't know...wonder if anyone has ordered a "fireball" bolt from them. Thanks again.

Gene

 

[Geno C]

Alex is correct. The ejection angle is the same with either extractor. In regards to the amount of material removed it's applies only to the depth of the cut in the bolt. I have never heard about a specific bolt for a 221 FB. Some extractor installs create an ejection issue where short cases fall out from under the extractor before the case reaches the loading port.

Are you having extraction or ejection problems?

Dave, the fireball bolts move the ejector so the case doesn't ride in the bolt lug way. With the shorter case, keeping it out of the lug way keeps the case from rotating far enough to free itself from the extractor. I assume they use the same bolts on their 300blackout guns as well.

 

[DaveTooley]

Dave, the fireball bolts move the ejector so the case doesn't ride in the bolt lug way. With the shorter case, keeping it out of the lug way keeps the case from rotating far enough to free itself from the extractor. I assume they use the same bolts on their 300blackout guns as well.

Thanks That makes sense from a Gunsmithing perspective. I have a Blackout built on the 223 action and I've never had problems with the case coming out from under the extractor. As far as hitting the scope turret, this rifle is built on a Cadex chassis and has a Schmidt 4-16 on it. The rifle seems to be about a foot and half tall the scope ends so high.

While I was typing this out I remembered I had a Model 7 AAC 300 Blackout action in the safe. The extractor and ejector are in the same location as my old 223 action.

 

[Geno C]

Thanks That makes sense from a Gunsmithing perspective. I have a Blackout built on the 223 action and I've never had problems with the case coming out from under the extractor. As far as hitting the scope turret, this rifle is built on a Cadex chassis and has a Schmidt 4-16 on it. The rifle seems to be about a foot and half tall the scope ends so high.

While I was typing this out I remembered I had a Model 7 AAC 300 Blackout action in the safe. The extractor and ejector are in the same location as my old 223 action.

Interesting. I know for a fact fireball bolts are different. I wonder why the blackout wasn't made the same..

 

[DaveTooley]

Interesting. I know for a fact fireball bolts are different. I wonder why the blackout wasn't made the same..

We are talking about Remington here.

 

[Geno C]

We are talking about Remington here.

Yeah there is that

 

[GAnderson]

After some more research I found that the early Remington Fireballs like the 700 Classics did have some of the bolts configured the same as the 223 bolt and it was after several complaints/returns on rifles that they(Remington) realized that a change was necessary. Most of the "newer" Fireball bolts that I have seen still have the EJECTOR in the same spot as the 223 bolt but the EXTRACTOR is positioned in a different location, so at first glance it might seem that the bolts are the same...I thought also that the Model 7 blackout bolts were configured like the fireball bolts...with the extractor re-positioned...but cannot confirm this.

Gene