The barrel can be great or it can be a lemon. Some barrels it seems you can do no wrong and they shoot right out the gate. Others you can work till the cows come home and they will never shoot. I have had good barrels in both cut and buttoned. I just think a good barrel is a good barrel. I believe steel quality and stress are some of the factors between a great barrel and a lemon. Matt
Button VS Cut rifling question
- Thread starter AKShooter
- Start date
Your really going to stay away from Hart because they said that they don't make bad barrels, really? IMO Barbara is the nicest person that I have ever dealt with as far as getting me a specific HV contour & twist blank. Call any other barrel maker and ask them if they make a bad barrel. What do you think their going to say? Yes we make bad barrels! I DON'T THINK SO! And your reason to stay away from Lilja barrels is because of Dan's arrogance? I dealt directly with him 2 weeks ago for the first time because I had a few questions for him before ordering a couple of HV contour blanks. The guy was very courteous and polite and answered all my questions, so I can't agree with you as far as him being arrogant. Maybe you caught him on a bad day. I shot a 17TW 3 groove Lilja last year in competition and it shot pretty well, enough for 6 first place, 2 second place and 5 third place finishes, which is decent IMO. As far as getting a hummer barrel from anybody, you have a better chance of screwing Pam Anderson. I don't know if you shoot benchrest, but you'll be hard pressed to see anybody shooting a Pac-Nor in SR benchrest. Years ago some people use to shoot them, but the only person that I can think of that shoots one is an 85 year old guy that shoots with us one in a while.
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You can be a world class shooter, but if you get a bum barrel, you will never shoot good groups or scores...
Our poster is asking about a 600 yd gun build, can you shoot the same accuracy as the barrel at that distance? I've won a lot of matches with substandard barrels then. While the boys were discussing .2moa accuracy and jerking around cutting powder kernels in half for an exact weight, I was learning to read the wind and mirage. Those skills paid off, weather my barrel was cut or buttoned, .2 moa or .6 moa I haven't met to many shooters who could shoot less than moa over a match of various conditions....... if one type of rifling is superior than the other makers wouldn't have much to do, but they're all busy. That said I've used both cut and buttoned, prefer cut but I've had some benchmark and lothar button barrels that were some of the best. I buy a lot of brux, have a few kreigers, bartlein, rock creek, makes no difference, I've still got to drive them.
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jonbearman
I live in new york state,how unfortunate !
I don't care that my opinion doesn't align with yours but when you get a smart comment from people you do business with I am done.Barb is a nice person and I didn't single anyone in particular other than lilja. Do a search and he has made more than many people upset when it came to a barrel that had problems and some companys wont stand behind their product anymore for some reason.. Money is tight and I wont do business with anyone that doesn't stand behind their product 100 percent. I am not even shooting right now do to surgery so no I am not in comps right now. Back to what I said, it is just an opinion and that was all. I have 2 pac-nors that shoot outstanding and like them. I have kreigers that are serious shooters.etc etc. A lot of people are just getting tired of no warranty when there is a real problem. Not everyone likes every business and I am sure you and most have run into sellers in our sport that rubbed you wrong. Sorry I upset you but we are all different. One thing is true like I said you can get a hummer from the top 5 barrel makers and sometimes they just wont shoot no matter what you do.
Not upset at u at all. Just was wondering why you were so upset at Hart & Lilja. I guess we all get treated differently by some people, I don't think it's intentional, at least I'd like to think it's not, but I know that if you catch a person that is having a bad day and you just happen to contact that person right at that moment, I could see where it would rub you the wrong way if they jumped down your throat because they were having a bad day. It was like not long ago, I sold 2 boxes of new 460 WBY brass on GB. I shipped them and when the guy got them, they had no primers in them and in the auction it said they were primed with 215M primers. I was in the middle of a verbal fight with my GF when he called. He started to whine like a broad on the rag. I just couldn't believe the way he was acting because I forgot to but 40 primers in. I told him that I would send him 40 primers in the mail to put in the cases and he still was whining because then he would have to put them in. I said are you for fkin real, your too lazy to put 40 primers in. I told him I was sorry but he didn't what to accept my apology. Finally I couldn't take it anymore and I told him to go FK himself. I sent him 2 bucks in an envelope and he gave me bad feedback.
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
I'm shooting a Lilja on my 223 right now, and it shoots great; however, my smith told me when I walked in with it, "as soon as I touch it it is yours no matter what is wrong with it because Lilja won't take one back for any reason."
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm shooting button barrels in F-open. I still have a couple of cut rifled barrels from K and B. Neither shoots better than, nor cleans easier than, my button barrels. They seem to be complete equals except the K changes zero when it gets warm and had a horrific tendency to copper for the first 1000 rounds.
fwiw,
I have a Pac-Nor Super Match on my .375 H&H(first custom rifle 1998'), Hart, Broughton 5Cs(Most accurate sporter .223 AI shoots regularly below .100" with a #3 contour at 21" for 3 shots) , Shilen Rimfire Ratchet, and cut rifle barrels from Mike Rock 5Rs, Krieger 4 groove(most accurate .308 Win from Mike at Tac Ops), and finally Bartlein 5Rs for 6.5mm(6.5x47L)... All of them were and are choice for the smith building the rifles. Never, never, ever go against what your smith wants to use. If you feel that strongly about it then find another smith... Not all barrels do all things equally. Shine seems to shine in short range BR which I find nearly as interesting as watching paint dry. However, I would certainly profit from Tony Boyer's experience if it was my thing. I would not try to talk D'arcy Echols into using a Broughton(he is a Krieger guy). In short go with the game, the barrel, and the man setting it up. His barrel of choice will likely go on better. fwiw & imho.
I do think properly maintained cut rifled barrels will outlast button barrels, however, that is my prejudice...
I've never been all that impressed with Lilja, however, I came close to buying a few for Anschutz Rimfires. Until I talked with someone who shall remain nameless, however, he has my complete confidence. Two experts actually. Dan is or has evidently retired and his sons are running the business LARGELY. I have talked to a young man on the phone a couple times and he was a little green on the details. Let us say that finish lapping has suffered on some barrels which is a shame as they are about the only source for .17 HMR barrels with factory Anschutz profiles in the profiling CNC lathe. I hope somebody tightens up QC... It does not, evidently, extend generally to centerfires as I have friends who have run his barrels under Government contract for years and LOVE THEM... That said they are not exactly checking each barrel for bore/groove specification from breach to muzzle. It shoots or does not... They are carried into combat not to a bench rest. I am still going to buy a sporter .17 rimfire barrel from them, however, we are going to be clear that it is going to be slugged and air gauged on receipt.
Regards, Matt.
I have a Pac-Nor Super Match on my .375 H&H(first custom rifle 1998'), Hart, Broughton 5Cs(Most accurate sporter .223 AI shoots regularly below .100" with a #3 contour at 21" for 3 shots) , Shilen Rimfire Ratchet, and cut rifle barrels from Mike Rock 5Rs, Krieger 4 groove(most accurate .308 Win from Mike at Tac Ops), and finally Bartlein 5Rs for 6.5mm(6.5x47L)... All of them were and are choice for the smith building the rifles. Never, never, ever go against what your smith wants to use. If you feel that strongly about it then find another smith... Not all barrels do all things equally. Shine seems to shine in short range BR which I find nearly as interesting as watching paint dry. However, I would certainly profit from Tony Boyer's experience if it was my thing. I would not try to talk D'arcy Echols into using a Broughton(he is a Krieger guy). In short go with the game, the barrel, and the man setting it up. His barrel of choice will likely go on better. fwiw & imho.
I do think properly maintained cut rifled barrels will outlast button barrels, however, that is my prejudice...
I've never been all that impressed with Lilja, however, I came close to buying a few for Anschutz Rimfires. Until I talked with someone who shall remain nameless, however, he has my complete confidence. Two experts actually. Dan is or has evidently retired and his sons are running the business LARGELY. I have talked to a young man on the phone a couple times and he was a little green on the details. Let us say that finish lapping has suffered on some barrels which is a shame as they are about the only source for .17 HMR barrels with factory Anschutz profiles in the profiling CNC lathe. I hope somebody tightens up QC... It does not, evidently, extend generally to centerfires as I have friends who have run his barrels under Government contract for years and LOVE THEM... That said they are not exactly checking each barrel for bore/groove specification from breach to muzzle. It shoots or does not... They are carried into combat not to a bench rest. I am still going to buy a sporter .17 rimfire barrel from them, however, we are going to be clear that it is going to be slugged and air gauged on receipt.
Regards, Matt.
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I have had good barrels from both cut and buttoned. Some of my best shooting and cleaning barrels have been buttoned. I sometimes see a tendency of certain calibers from a certain company tend to be really good. What I mean by that is a certain 6mm from a certain company seems to shoot really good on a consistent basis. Matt
At least in my personal experience this is dead wrong. You buy it, you are stuck with it. Lilja will not stand behind their barrels or any other service that they offer. Learned this the hard way and so have many others. To many good barrel makers out there to put up with this nonsense.
Regards, Paul
www.boltfluting.com
M
The 3 guy's that I use as smith's, Dwight, Sid, and Larry Feusse, never ever forced me to use any brand of barrel. I think if they ever did, I would find someone else. I don't know who you use but I wouldn't certainly use him if he's got you thinking like that.
fwiw,
Nobody FORCED anybody to do anything. That being said I can read sign...Hint.
Clay Spencer liked his own barrels back when he was making them... Nothing wrong there. Vertical integration in quality control. Not that he would not build on a limited number of other barrel maker's products...
Darcy Echols likes Krieger and his Legends are famous around the world for performing and Krieger has been his choice from the beginning... The people with the money to buy a pair of Classics to hunt the World want PERFORMANCE and the value of his experience. They EXPECT and DEMAND that his rifles work, carry, and function as well as they do. Why would I argue with him?
Mike Rescigno at Tactical Operations uses hand picked Kriegers to offer his .250 MOA, and generally much better, accuracy guarantee... My X-Ray 51 is unreal... Mike only does three or four chambering: .308 GMM, .260 GMM, .300 GMM, and maybe .223 GMM...(?) He only builds, and chambers for, what Federal makes Gold Medal Match ammunition for... Most of his customers are SWAT Teams who can afford a $6800 Rifle short the Scope...
The better question is why would you tell a Race Engine builder to use TRW Forged Pistons instead of the J&E Custom Pistols HE PREFERS to use and has made his name with... Yeah. Maybe he should build anything you want on any gathering of parts you put in front of him, however, THAT is NOT the way it works. If you were catapulted to the head of Dick Heinie's 7 or 8 year line for building one of his Signature 1911s HOW MUCH WOULD YOU DICTATE TO HIM ON WHAT PARTS: SLIDE & FRAME, BARREL, SEAR, HAMMER, ETC. that he was allowed to use to build YOUR pistol... Kind of want to bet you could very easily get the option of a few choices or to "hit the bricks" as there are 150 guys waiting to take your place...
I had a similar conversation 24 plus years ago with Larry Vickers. Well before anyone knew who he was. I knew JACK other than the names from hundreds of magazines... He said he would use a Bar-Sto IF it was available and a Wilson Combat if not. Like you I choose to pass as the man was telling me what parts he was going to use on MY GUN... I found someone else... Do you have any idea how much that pistol would be worth today had I shut up after generally telling him my likes and dislikes? It would be a treasure to hand down from generation to generation... That said I did as you suggested and found someone who would use what I WANTED. Forget the fact that HE was the runaway expert on the topic and I had spent $1000 on American Handgunner and the mags that copy it... Smart on my part don't you think?
I am personally looking for performance NOT dictating the name of the part to the industry expert... I also don't want to argue with Dieter on what part he chooses for my Mercedes AMG either... Stupid ill informed me. I just want it to work and to drive without thinking about it to much. That is the residue of superb design...
Regards, Matt Garrett
Chesapeake, Virginia
757-581-6270
I have the ability to shoot any barrel makers Barrels. There is no difference in the highest quality barrel makers. Personally I am of the opinion Dan Muller at Muller Works Barrels makes the best Barrels. He makes both Cut and Button Barrels. Never had one that would not shoot. They may cost a little more but they are worth it.
Nat Lambeth
Nat Lambeth
There are so many high quality barrels to choose from and so many who say A, B or C is the best. On my last build my smith (well known and respected) told me he hadn't use barrel A in a while after they fell off in quality, barrel maker B just let an employee go that let some barrel out the door that he shouldn't have barrel C have been shooting very well and barrel D has been getting a lot of praise but he didn't have enough experience and real data on them. My response was easy "I trust your experience, you pick it". Based on the caliber he felt comfortable with one make at that time due to results of several recent builds. I couldn't be happier.
On another note I once told a barrel maker that I wanted to make a first purchase of one of his barrels. I asked how he stands behind his product? He told me if it didn't shoot due to the barrel he would ship me another and also give the smith one for his trouble.
On another note I once told a barrel maker that I wanted to make a first purchase of one of his barrels. I asked how he stands behind his product? He told me if it didn't shoot due to the barrel he would ship me another and also give the smith one for his trouble.
Bottom line is I don't care if a gunsmith hand picks anything, that doesn't mean jack shit. Picking a barrel is nothing more than a crapshoot. Barrel makers are all at the mercy of the steel suppliers. I don't care what brand it is, if you get a bad batch of steel, all your doing is making tomato stakes.
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Couldn't agree more that was the point. But I would rather let him guess based on odds of what he is seeing at the time and occasional personal knowledge of the business.
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