Dumb issue with FL sizing

[potatoe]

Hey fellas, I have a rather dumb issue with my .223 FL sizer. First off everything on this is factory, its a tikka .223 rem and a standard non-bushing Redding FL sizing die and this is just a walking varminter so nothing fancy. My fired cases will have a good and ever so 'slight' crush fit when closing the bolt - honestly I'd be fine with that bolt close on a sized case. I wanted to get the die set up to just barely give me a bump (.001 or so ) and when I resize even before I get to bump the shoulder and up to .005 bump (thats the farthest I went) I get a hard bolt close. Also the neck is fine, not over the chamber neck.

My cases do not grow past chamber length, and I over trimmed one just to see if this was the issue and still a hard close. I locked the calipers at the shoulder body junction and even with a .002 bump they slid down the body of the sized case a good bit (.25" or which is a bunch) Other then getting a new die I don't know what to do. Any input?

 

[22BRGUY]

Are you screwing down the die all the way so the bottom of the die touches the top of the shell holder when the ram is all the way up? or how far away from the shell holder is the bottom of the die when the press ram is extended to the top of the stroke (if this makes sense)??

 

[potatoe]

I understand what you're saying. I don't know the exact measurement but I'm guessing its slightly less than a dime's width (a flat dime) so it's not screwed down too far - if you screw it down much past the shellholder it will not size it enough. This brass was fired previously in my AR and has shot well in my bolt gun but this tight bolt close has been an issue since the beginning. I have some new Lapua that I'll be shooting tomorrow and it chambers fine I just can't figure out why the other is so tight even though it shoots quite well.

 

[ireload2]

Take a half dozen or so fired cases that you would expect to give resistance when you close the bolt after they are sized.

Give these cases a good level of case lube like Imperial. Size a case slowly, retract it and rotate it 120 degrees and size slowly, and dwell at the top of the stroke about 3 to 5 seconds. Repeat by turning the case another 120 degrees and size slowly with a 3 to 5 second dwell.
This rigamarole will give the brass a very thorough sizing and it gives the brass at the shoulder enough time to creep to a final position.
I think you will find that your brass will fit your rifle after all of this. And it might be over resized with the same die.

You really need a tool to measure the fired cases from the head to the datum circle. Measure fired cases then measure resized cases and sneak up on the dimension that allow your stripped bolt to close with a light drag.
When you size hundreds of cases measure each one. You will find that the amount of lube and the speed of sizing will affect the head to shoulder length. Adjust your technique until all cases come out of the die exactly the same at the exact dimension that you want for a perfect fit. You can only do this if you have a means to measure each case and see the variations that occur due to accidental variations in technique.

 

[22BRGUY]

I understand what you're saying. I don't know the exact measurement but I'm guessing its slightly less than a dime's width (a flat dime) so it's not screwed down too far - if you screw it down much past the shellholder it will not size it enough. This brass was fired previously in my AR and has shot well in my bolt gun but this tight bolt close has been an issue since the beginning. I have some new Lapua that I'll be shooting tomorrow and it chambers fine I just can't figure out why the other is so tight even though it shoots quite well.

Don't know if you want to try this but at one time even with the die touching the shell holder at the top of stroke, it wouldn't push the shoulder back much if any at all. I took the shell holder out to the garage and ground off about 20 thou of the top face of the shell holder on my bench grinder and then it worked and would push the shoulder back the 2 thou I wanted or more if I wanted. Shell holders are cheap was my thinking.
Best Wishes whatever you do.

 

[Buzz]

Are you sure this is a headspace issue and not an issue with the cases being slightly bulged from firing in your AR? If you have a dime's width gap between the bottom of the die and the shell holder you're likely not sizing the entire case, and I would think a slight bulge at the base would cause this same problem. A small base die would get them back into shape if that's the issue.

 

[savagedasher]

Take the ball of your sizing die and see if you still have the problem. Larry

 

[Iowa Fox]

Use some magic marker and blacken the suspect areas to see where its tight. Otherwise you're just guessing unless you can see a spot on the brass.

 

['Freak]

A dime’s like .050” to pushing .060” thick, or what you’d have with the die backed ~ 3/4 turn away from contact with the shellholder. A standard FL die that’s been screwed in to ‘cam-over’ contact with the shellholder should push the case shoulder back to near minimum SAAMI case head to shoulder datum length.

Combine an overly fat case body from it having been fired in a fat AR chamber with a FL die backed out so far that the die’s shoulder never gets near enuf to touch much less bump the case shoulder, and whilst the die is squeezing in on the sides of the overly fat case body this will move the case shoulder forward, increasing the case head to shoulder datum length beings as there is nowhere else that the brass can go but forward.

 

[LHSmith]

Expecting AR fired brass to work in a bolt gun is asking for problems. Always get new unfired brass to dedicate to a chamber. I could see aggravating oneself if new brass was unobtainable.....but new. .223 brass is abundant.

 

[dkhunt14]

I don't even like switching brass from one bolt gun to another. Problems can happen when doing this. Matt

 

[LHSmith]

I don't even like switching brass from one bolt gun to another. Problems can happen when doing this. Matt

Yep, as evidenced by threads like this appearing daily.

 

[potatoe]

I've got new Lapua and am going to shoot it today. Even though this was 1x in the AR it fit the first reloading in the bolt gun and fits fine after being fired its getting resized after being fired in the bolt gun is when it gets tight. It doesn't really matter because I'm switching brass I was just wanting to know if anyone knew why. Also don't get hung up on the dime thickness i just guessed but it far enough down that I'm bumping the shoulder.

 

[dkhunt14]

You might be bumping the shoulder but I bet your not sizing the base any. Matt

 

[potatoe]

That's kind of what I was thinking but that's new territory for me I haven't reloaded for factory for a long timeand I was wondering if a small bas die was needed. I still think its weird that they fired Kelly from its its fine but once I resize it is when I gets tight I've never heard of that. I was what was needed either way I am shooting lapua now I just was wanting to know for future reference if I come across this

 

['Freak]

Have you tested via a stripped bolt and obtained for reference a length measurement from the case head to shoulder datum where you know that the case is right at the point to where it’s completely filling the chamber from the bolt’s face to the chamber’s shoulder such that there is right at .000” headspace?

 

[AckleymanII]

I don't even like switching brass from one bolt gun to another. Problems can happen when doing this. Matt

+1

There is a myriad of issues arising from trying to size the base dia to a proper fit upon chambering and NOT pushing the shoulder back .006-.012 in order to be able to accomplish this.

I would not recommend taking more than .003 off the top of a shell holder because it is very easy to push the shoulder back so far that you will start to get case separations...learned this the hard way.

Also, if you are firing AR brass, I would size it in a small base sizer right off the bat...spring back, and spring back happens over time also as the brass tries to "normalize" back to the larger dia of the AR chamber...can of worms in some brass. It is amazing to set the full length sizer up and size the brass where it chambers properly, then three weeks later the web dia has increased due to spring back over time.

It would be real nice to have a Web sizer only the size of a small base die, size the brass with it, then use a normal full length sizer to push the shoulder back to the proper position. This would not over work the brass, and should increase barrel life dramatically.

I have cut the tops of small base sizer off to accomplish sizing the web without pushing the shoulder back too far.

Firing brass that has been fired in an AR can be a real can of worms in a Minimum spec match chamber bolt gun...We need web sizers made by the die makers bad in many cases.

 

[dkhunt14]

If the bolt is stripped and isn't falling shut with a sized case, it isn't sized enough. If you fired them in the other gun, it is possible that the chamber on that gun is longer on headspace. You might have to bump them more then normal. I would take a new case, fire it and see what the base to shoulder datum is. Matt

 

[savagedasher]

If you are using a expander ball it can pull the neck foward and give you a false reading when bumping the shoulder. Larry

 

[RemingtonAI]

I would highly recommend the Hornady Precision Mic tool to measure from the cartridge base to the datum point. Comes with 2 sleeves, one to measure head space and one to measure OAL from the CBTO. I just finally solved a month of headspace issues myself. Granted, i had the tool the whole time so the error was more narrowed down but it was finally the switching of dies that solved the problem. As Larry said above, the expander ball on my Lee FLS was causing a lot of variation in the bump i was looking to achieve. After many experiments i took the advice of my local reloading supplier and started using the Hornady "new dimension" FLS to bump my cases. The expander ball is much more tapered allowing for more ease of the case over the expander, and now i am getting the same exact amount of bump with almost zero deviation, even if my pressure on the arm varies. I know this is different than what you are experiencing but my point was that you never know what your die is doing without measuring the bump. The precision mic is $50 but you dont have to attach it to you calipers or anything, you dont have to remove the primer, and you can measure headspace with a loaded cartridge. That will probably help you narrow down what is going on at least from case to case. Jesse