.223 Heavies for Groundhog Hunting??

[Brians356]

Is it more humane to blow the leg off a prairie dog with a fast expanding .308 varmint bullet or shoot them in the head with a .223 target bullet?

At 600 yards you won't have the luxury of choosing only head shots!

I'm not saying a 223 is not lethal at 600 yards, I'm saying it may not be devastating enough to kill instantly, even through the vitals. If marmots are close enough to make head shots, then the explosive effects the OP desires will be realized using an appropriate bullet.

 

[Brians356]

In my past experience with the 223 on groundhogs, I've seen more crawl offs with it over 300yds than any other rifle I use (22-250, 220 Swift, 243, and 6xc). The shots at 600yds and further that I've seen chucks anchored were made with a 6-250, 243, 6.5-06, and 6xc. Sure there are others, but those are the ones I've SEEN. Keep in mind that at the longer distances the DRT killzone becomes more difficult to hit. A gut shot wont get it done And the heavyweight bullets from a 223 are going to be dropping like a rock at those distances as is the energy the bullet is carrying making the area for a quick humane kill even more difficult to hit. My advice to you would be to shorten your range, or shoot a caliber with more umph. JME. WD

There was an article in Varmint Hunter magazine many years ago written by a guy who built a rifle for 800-yd rock chucking in SE Idaho. His goal was explosive "pink mist" first-shot kills at 800 yards. The cartridge? A wildcat based on 8x68S RWS, with improved body and necked down to 25-cal. From a 28-in (or longer barrel) I believe he was pushing 85-gr bullets close to 4000 fps. Anyone recall the name of this wildcat?

 

[JRS]

There was an article in Varmint Hunter magazine many years ago written by a guy who built a rifle for 800-yd rock chucking in SE Idaho. His goal was explosive "pink mist" first-shot kills at 800 yards. The cartridge? A wildcat based on 8x68S RWS, with improved body and necked down to 25-cal. From a 28-in (or longer barrel) I believe he was pushing 85-gr bullets close to 4000 fps. Anyone recall the name of this wildcat?

25 DTI

 

[Brians356]

25 DTI

Nope, that's based on 6.8 SPC, a much smaller case, shorter than 223 Rem and designed for AR-15.

The parent 8x68S holds 86 grains H2O - before blowing out the body!

 

[JRS]

25 Banshee. Close in capacity to the 25 STW.

 

[Brians356]

25 Banshee. Close in capacity to the 25 STW.

That's it! Thanks.

The point being that when shooting 223 Rem w/ 75-80 grain bullets from 600 yards, you are lobbing them down on groundhogs. Even assuming hits in the vitals, the remaining velocity will not produce the literally explosive effects most hunters associate with "instant kills". The marmot will still be in one piece, and likely still ambulatory for a short time (unless struck in the head.)

 

[JRS]

That's it! Thanks.

The point being that when shooting 223 Rem w/ 75-80 grain bullets from 600 yards, you are lobbing them down on groundhogs. Even assuming hits in the vitals, the remaining velocity will not produce the literally explosive effects most hunters associate with "instant kills". The marmot will still be in one piece, and likely still ambulatory for a short time (unless struck in the head.)

There's also the Ferguson Hot Tamale. Some kind of modified 25 STW. I'm a quarter bore fan!

 

[Brians356]

There's also the Ferguson Hot Tamale. Some kind of modified 25 STW. I'm a quarter bore fan!

Me too! My favorite is my 250 Ackley Improved. Punches way above its weight. Old P.O. himself said it was the most efficient and successful of his AI creations.

 

[fredo]

That's it! Thanks.

The point being that when shooting 223 Rem w/ 75-80 grain bullets from 600 yards, you are lobbing them down on groundhogs. Even assuming hits in the vitals, the remaining velocity will not produce the literally explosive effects most hunters associate with "instant kills". The marmot will still be in one piece, and likely still ambulatory for a short time (unless struck in the head.)

Absolutely.
However, give those 'heavies' the push they deserve, and they'll do the job, and then some! A hotrod .224 will add 6-700fps of muzzle velocity to a 75-80grainer, and you've got yourself a very capable 'chuck destroyer!

BTW, for the quarterbore fans, I was honored when Mike Milli asked me to field test his new .25DTI wildcat several years ago. Was able to kill the first deer and coyotes with that cartridge. Sure is a performer from only an 18" barrel!

90gr Sierra HP @ 2980fps:

75Vmax @ 3175, vicious on coyotes!

Super little case! Very accurate and not finicky to load for. Liked H4895, TAC & H322.
I've kicked around building a .25DTI bolt gun, just haven't followed through. Would be IDEAL for those who can hunt with suppressors, since it works so well in a short barrel...

 

[Brians356]

BTW, for the quarterbore fans, I was honored when Mike Milli asked me to field test his new .25DTI wildcat several years ago. Was able to kill the first deer and coyotes with that cartridge. Sure is a performer from only an 18" barrel!

90gr Sierra HP @ 2980fps:

75Vmax @ 3175, vicious on coyotes!

Super little case! Very accurate and not finicky to load for. Liked H4895, TAC & H322.

What's the case capacity?

 

[fredo]

IIRC, 36.2grains with the mildly improved 'DTI' shoulder.
Necked down SSA 6.8SPC brass (with small primer pocket) is all I ran.

Cool thing about that .25DTI is that it'd push a 75gr as fast from an 18" barrel as a 6mmDTI would push a 75gr from a 22" barrel. Efficient little sucker...

 

[Brians356]

IIRC, 36.2grains with the mildly improved 'DTI' shoulder.
Necked down SSA 6.8SPC brass (with small primer pocket) is all I ran.

Is that H2O capacity to case mouth?

So you fire-formed the new shoulder bulletless, or ... ?

 

[AckleymanII]

I have a Savage 12 223 7 twist and a Tikka T3 Varmint 8 twist that we want to do some longer range 600yd groundhog hunting with. My question is what bullets are you guys using for the longer range?? It seems that most of the heavies are for target, not varmint hunting. I would like to try the Berger 80.5 in both guns but that may be a while as I understand it will be QUITE sometime before they run them again. So what other choices are there?? Want something that provides a quick humane kill, with hopefully no crawl offs. Thanks for any help!

I have shot a lot of chucks with lots of calibers. The 223 with heavies is one of the WORST combo's you could come up with, sorry.

75's are now being made harder, don't ask me why. The Savage should be punched out to a 22/250 AI or a 22/243 AI even better when the 75's could reach 3550-3650 with accuracy.

If you decide to stick with the guns the way they are, stay within range where you feel comfortable with head and shoulder shots, because the bullets are not going to expand, so think of your rig as shooting FMJ bullets. You will shoot animals and hit them solid and they will just disappear like they have not been hit, infact most of your hits you will not know. With the heavies at slow speeds, you get a lot of over and under shots.

I suspect that your throat is long to accommodate the bullets for 7-8 twist, so you may have limited success with lighter bullets.

Target shooters don't know jack about actual killing, and it is pathetic reading some of these reponses. So, listen to experienced Chuck shooters. A good friend built an 8 twist 22/250 and shot 80g Bergers, this rig was a terrible in the chuck field on killing.

The best chuck rifles have HORSEPOWER, buck the wind, flat shooting trajectory, speed/rotational torque to make the bullet jacket open up especially past 350 yards.

Start now and you may have time to make some changes before Chuck season gets here. I only talk this frank with you so that
you will not waste a year. I learned the hard way, hope you don't have to.

Best wishes!

Ps. the best way to make use of your existing rifes is to shoot 55g Sierra Blitz kings in the Tikka and shoot short range. Then have the savage re chambered to the cases I mentioned with the 22/243 AI being the best of them with the 80g A max going 3550+

 

[agreen60]

AckleymanII, Thanks for the info. I was just looking to see if actual groundhog hunters were having any success using any of the heavier bullets they have out today. The 600 yard figure was the farthest they would be used for, and that would be on rare occasion's. Most shots will be for 300 and under. I won't be wasting any time as these are not my only 2 varmint rifles. I have LRPV"s in 204 12 twist and 223 9 twist, and LRP 6.5 Creedmoor. I also can change barrels on the Savage and have a few extra barrels. The Tikka is a different story, not going to change it will just have to find the lightest bullet it will shoot.

The 7 Twist Savage 223 I will try to shoot some lighter bullets, any body having any luck with the 53 VMAX In a 7 twist, without them blowing up??

 

[Brians356]

A good friend built an 8 twist 22/250 and shot 80g Bergers, this rig was a terrible in the chuck field on killing.

Did you mean the 22-250 shooting 80-gr was literally terrible (i.e. not good) in the chuck field? (Or it was a terror?)

 

[AckleymanII]

Did you mean the 22-250 shooting 80-gr was literally terrible (i.e. not good) in the chuck field? (Or it was a terror?)

Brian, he said that it was not a good killing load, he would never do another...crawlers...poor bullet expansion. He went to a 243 AI shooting the 70g Noslers at 3800 fps.

 

[fredo]

Is that H2O capacity to case mouth?

So you fire-formed the new shoulder bulletless, or ... ?

Yes, measured capacity. But I'm going off memory from 5+yrs ago...

Mike commissioned Hornady to make die sets for the various "DTI"s, so building brass was a simple necking down of SSA 6.8SPC brass thru the FL die. Only took one pass to step down to .257 caliber...

I used a warm-ish load & killed stuff while forming brass, the DTI 'improvement moves the shoulder slightly forward and sharpens it from 23 -30°. Think I only bumped the charge up 0.2gr or so with fully formed cases...

Was & still am a huge fan of the 6x45, but the 6.8SPC based cases are ideal for an AR-15. And the .25 caliber "DTI" version happened to be the best of the bunch, IMHO. Most efficient, very accurate and forgiving to load for.

Shoot me a PM if you need any more info!

 

[Brians356]

Was & still am a huge fan of the 6x45, but the 6.8SPC based cases are ideal for an AR-15. And the .25 caliber "DTI" version happened to be the best of the bunch, IMHO. Most efficient, very accurate and forgiving to load for.

Thanks.

I shoot and love 250 Ackley Improved 40-deg. It's quite a bit longer, probably too long for AR-15.

Back to the subject of bolt guns and marmots from distance, I like the 6mm Rem AI concept for pushing wind-bucking bullets at speed.** But for something more efficient (less brute force) I have in mind 6mm-250 AI (i.e. 6mm International Improved) which is very similar I think to the newer 6 XC (originally formed from 22-250.) I think it would be right on the heels of the longer 6mm Rem AI.

(** http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek042/)