Your thoughts on fouling

[762willdo]

I was at a match this weekend and was talking to a guy who was cleaning his rifle between relays (something I’ve never done) anyways I noticed he was only using a carbon killer and nothing for copper so I commented why arent you using a copper cleaner or combo cleaner and he told me at matches he only goes after carbon because carbon is what will give you flyers not copper….. I made no comment as I had no data to back up my argument……j
what do you guys say? Do you agree or disagree has anyone done any testing in this area?
I thought about this for the rest of the day

 

[rardoin]

I shoot F-class and I have not found a benefit, in my set-up, to cleaning more often than 150rds or so. I shot a clean with 12x at 1000 on Saturday, last match of the day and 136rds on the bore since last clean at the beginning of that match. I also tune with a well fouled bore as that is how the matches will be shot, in my case. One data point here.

 

[deadidarren]

The barrel will tell what it needs their all a law unto them selves.

 

[Bill Norris]

In my experience if there is not some fouling in the bore the rifle will not shoot at it's best. Some will want more than others. Coated bullets seem to need more fouling shots than naked bullets.

 

[Ranger188]

It all depends on your rifle and shooting discipline.
A lot of SRB shooters clean their barrel after each relay and know how many
fouler's it takes to get it back.
F class and long range BR some times wait till the end of the day to clean.
Some barrels need to be cleaned more often to shoot small and others don't.
Theirs not a one all correct answer to your question.
You'll have to see what works for you. Sorry.

 

[drop_point]

My thoughts are to test it and see. I had been pretty anal about cleaning my barrel every 40 rounds or so. I shot a two day match recently and didn't have an opportunity to clean and fired 180 rounds without cleaning. It was shooting better on my last string than it ever shoots clean. Maybe I'm just sucking less than haha.

 

[K22]

This is a controversial topic because there are so many approaches, different shooting discipline needs, experiences, theories, assertions, etc.

I can only tell you want I have learned over 50+ years of shooting at the precision varmint hunting level. My comments are based on actual results of target.

In my experience, carbon is the enemy of accuracy. However, I do not believe you need to go to elaborate means to control it. I have used simple inexpensive solvents with a bronze brush and clean about every 50 to 60 rounds. Based on my tests, the bronze brush is the significant cleaning agent.

I also run a patch of mineral spirits followed by a dry patch after every hunt / range session in the interim between full cleaning sessions to mitigate the accumulation of carbon. Sometimes I may only fire 1 or 2 shots on a hunt, and it will several days before the next hunt or range session. So, the patch of mineral spirits removes the gross carbon so it will not attract moisture. It also does not affect first shot POI.

I have found that aggressive copper solvents create first shot flyers and often requires several shots to re-establish desire POI. I agree with gunblue490 that copper does not accumulate once the all the imperfections in the barrel have been filled with a layer of copper plating. I have thousands of rounds through several rifles that bears this assertion out if your measurement criteria are results on target.

I have no clean barrel or first shot flyers or need to "condition" the barrel for desire POI. As a precision hunter, we don't get "fouling" shots. I know these goes against established doctrines, but it is what I have experienced so take it for whatever it is worth.

 

[Old Navy]

I let the last group fired with a known good load decide. If it was good, no cleaning. I also use this approach when testing groups and the barrel is heating up. Like what was already mentioned, all guns are different.

 

[JMayo]

Pressure/ speed changes as more shots fired.
To tune with a clean barrel then it gets better as it gets dirty makes me question the tune.

I will run a wet and a couple dry every 20-30 rounds on my 6ppc. I really think it matters.
Clean well at home

The 30 br I've shot all day just because i was mad at it !
A patch would hardly go down it when i did and getting it clean at home was a chore. So that's a reason to not let it get that way.

My 6bra 600yrd rifle.... Hummmm. I don't think i can shoot it well enough to tell dirty from clean.
But pressure does go up as it gets dirty so i patch it a bit.

Some ppl have a cleaning regiment that boggles my mind. But hey it's their toys and they can play with them any way they want. It doesn't have to make sense to me.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

I’ve proved time and time again my guns shoot better dirty, I clean after a match
but make sure I go shoot at least 20 rounds before a match.
that’s what works for me

 

[std7mag]

Here's a thought.
People say about taking the rifle home after a match, or informal session at the range, and scrub the dickens out of it.
Every spec of carbon and copper out of it.

What's the first thing you do at a match?

Yup, shoot foulers to put the copper back in it.

I'll scrub with Hoppe/Kroil mix to get the carbon out.
I don't touch the copper.

 

[nakneker]

Ask 10 guys and get 10 answer/opinions. My own procedure has changed several times over the years, from not cleaning until losing accuracy to a squeaky clean OCD approach. Now I’m somewhere in between. I have some rifles I clean more than others and some I let go longer than others, been using patch out and patch accelerator for most of my cleaning but once in awhile I break out bore techs carbon cleaner especially if I see any carbon ring beginning or tougher stuff if needed.

It’s a topic that gets debated often, do a search and you’ll find a bunch of threads on it. In my own opinion it depends a bit on the rifle and what your experiences have taught you. There’s multiple paths to the same destination that work.

 

[Ccrider]

After the first two or three shots, all barrels have fouling. The question for me is how many shots after initial fouling before I see a loss of accuracy on the target. I want to clean before I get to that point.

My thought is that it is best to clean after 15-30 shots. Where exactly depends on how much caffeine I have had that particular day.

 

[K22]

Here's a thought.
People say about taking the rifle home after a match, or informal session at the range, and scrub the dickens out of it.
Every spec of carbon and copper out of it.

What's the first thing you do at a match?

Yup, shoot foulers to put the copper back in it.

I'll scrub with Hoppe/Kroil mix to get the carbon out.
I don't touch the copper.

This has been my experience also and I have thousands of rounds through several rifles, and they all shoot darn good. 2,011 groundhogs to date can attest to that in the ground hog after life.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

After the first two or three shots, all barrels have fouling. The question for me is how many shots after initial fouling before I see a loss of accuracy on the target. I want to clean before I get to that point.

My thought is that it is best to clean after 15-30 shots. Where exactly depends on how much caffeine I have had that particular day.

Good question, after a good cleaning the last match I shot 600 yards pre fouled week before match with 15 and my cold bore Sighter was a 10 my last 6 shots of the match which l was mid 90’s round count where a mixture of 10’s and X’s that was with a 6 mm. Like I said that works for me. Maybe others will share what works for them

 

[ebb]

I don't think he meant it as you are understanding it. I think he meant that HE can't get enough copper in HIS bore in the length of the match to create fowlers, but HE believes that he can have carbon problems in that amount of shots. Because enough copper will surely ruin groups.

 

[762willdo]

I don't think he meant it as you are understanding it. I think he meant that HE can't get enough copper in HIS bore in the length of the match to create fowlers, but HE believes that he can have carbon problems in that amount of shots. Because enough copper will surely ruin groups.

Yes this is along the line of my thinking…..what’s the BIGGER enemy of tight groups copper or carbon? the man I talked too believed it’s carbon

 

[JEFFPPC]

Fellow at the match thinks like me.

 

[AckleymanII]

Barrels can be unique in what they need. A rough cut rifle barrel presents a special set of problems.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Sometimes I think the first couple wet patches tell you a lot, if they run through smoothly (no tighter feeling spots) it will be a quick cleanup of carbon fouling. Hunting rifles, I don't want to clean to the point of changing the cold bore shot poi. As my main coyote hunting rifles are used Oct to March and I don't want to hit the range in bad weather to confirm a zero or fire foulers.