XM-118LR in a M24 SWS...

[OttoVonMog]

So, I've recently purchased a Remington M24 R SWS and now it is time to test it out. And since it is the Army's secondary Sniper Weapon System at this point in time ( it might be the primary system again, I've heard the M110 SASS didn't pan out as expect... I'm not sure) it seems only fitting to see if the XM-118LR ammo can perform as well as some claim it can in this platform.

The specs for those that don't know Rifle Or Ammo.

Rifle:
LOA: 43 Inches
Barrel: Cold Hammer Forged 416R Stainless 5R Rifling 1:11.25 Twist rate 24 inches Contour 8# (roughly the muzzle diameter is about .825-.875 I haven't measured it exactly yet.)
Stock: HS Composite with adjustable length of pull only. Large palm swell grip, and wide form arm.
Trigger: 40X trigger factory tuned to 2.5-3.5lbs of pull. Adjustable by user with Allen key.
Magazine: Internal 5 Rounds in .308/7.62 or 4 in .300 Win. (my gun is in the standard .308).

Scope: Military uses a Leupold Mark 3 10x 40mm -- I'm using a Leupold Mark 4 8.5-25 50mm ER/T with a 30mm tube and Badger Ordnance Rings with six set screws to secure it.
Rest: Harris LM Bipod same as the military uses

Ammo:

XM-118LR Special Ball ( standard sniper ammo).

MV: 2580FPS (stated by Lake City data unknown chronograph distance from muzzle.)
Energy: Not Stated but in the 2500Ft-lbs range if you use the 2580fps as a muzzle velocity.
projectile: Sierra Match King 175grain a classic projectile in the medium weight class for the .30 long range work.
Powder is stated to IMR 4064 I believe.

The US Army states max range at 800m effective the USMC states 915m (1000yards) with the same ammo.


So, I'm purchasing 1000rnds of XM-118LR to do one simple thing-- find out if it is as capable of achieving the accuracy that would seem to be need for long precision shooting in essentially field like conditions.

Test equipment:

Chronograph: Chrony Alpha Unit
Environmental: Kestral 4500

Supports:
Harris Bi-pod and Sand Sock rear support only.

Ranges to be tested:

Starting 100 to 500 yards in all weather conditions

Finishing 600-1000 yards in all weather conditions.

Hopefully we can add in some 1000+ shooting conditions if I can find a safe place to do it.


Length testing time at least 6 months. I want to test this ammo and gun combination out in all types of weather from Fall to Summer to see exactly what is the stability and viability of the XM-118LR's accuracy in various conditions. Then after I have this baseline information developed using the actual ammo of the US Military-- I will then develop hand loads to find out how much better my accuracy can be with similar conditions.

 

[effendude]

Good Luck and have fun with that ;D

 

[wwbrown]

The first thought is why?

I have a hunch that if you spent some time wading through www.dtic.mil/ you would probably find all of the data that you are going to collect. Your tax dollars have already paid to collect the data so why do it again.

I have a hunch that the M24's barrel is button-rifled.

 

[mao0720]

While I was the manager at a local gun shop for two years I was able to get in 4 total of these US Army returned and refurbished M24's. sold one to a buddy of mine, and then subsequently have been able to convince him to shoot some midrange FTR matches with me. He shows up with an M24, USO 17x scope, harris bipod and Remington, Black hills, or more recently Eagle Eye factory 175gr ammo, and proceeds to shoot in the high 180's with legitimate 1/2 moa vertical. These rifle plain shoot! And my buddy is no slouch either. Im afraid Im going to get him hooked to the point that he puts together a dedicated FTR rifle, cuz he will start kicking my butt then! Good luck with the testing. I for one would like to see the results.

 

[OttoVonMog]

The first thought is why?

I have a hunch that if you spent some time wading through www.dtic.mil/ you would probably find all of the data that you are going to collect. Your tax dollars have already paid to collect the data so why do it again.

I have a hunch that the M24's barrel is button-rifled.

Curiosity. on my part. Trust me I've done a lot of research on the military ammo. The US government has the information, but, they aren't readily sharing any of it.

The rifle is supposedly cold-hammer forged according to the description found on Remington's Defense Weapon's catalog which, I copied verbatim for my description. So, unless they are lying for some reason that I cannot figure out I would say the barrel is cold-hammer-forged like many of the premium rifles are from HK and Sako (Tikka) to name a few. I would have preferred a single point cut barrel. When I shoot this one out-- I'll probably get a single point cut 1:6.75 twist rate 6.5 mm barrel and rechamber it for 6.5-47mm with a similar contour but 4.5 inches longer. Just to play it with it in that configuration.

 

[OttoVonMog]

While I was the manager at a local gun shop for two years I was able to get in 4 total of these US Army returned and refurbished M24's. sold one to a buddy of mine, and then subsequently have been able to convince him to shoot some midrange FTR matches with me. He shows up with an M24, USO 17x scope, harris bipod and Remington, Black hills, or more recently Eagle Eye factory 175gr ammo, and proceeds to shoot in the high 180's with legitimate 1/2 moa vertical. These rifle plain shoot! And my buddy is no slouch either. Im afraid Im going to get him hooked to the point that he puts together a dedicated FTR rifle, cuz he will start kicking my butt then! Good luck with the testing. I for one would like to see the results.

That's sort of why I bought the rifle when I found one for sale. I want to see if the things you hear about it and the so-called special ball are myth or reality. And I think it will be just plain fun to shoot it out of the box with all the same components that military uses to see how good I am as a shooter. Plus, I think the data would be interesting to look at and see what sort results you can really get from this rifle. I'm thinking of doing this comparison side by side with Black Hills 175's, Buffalo Bore 175's and HSM 175's and their XM-118LR loads. Perhaps, a few other factory offerings in the 175 grain weight class. I would like to make a pretty complete data base for the rifle.

Then of course develop my own loads for the M24 with heavier bullets: 185's 190's and 210's. Berger 210's pushed at 2505-2545 fps seem pretty viable according to Applied Ballistics software. I'm a big fan of shooting for data.

 

[OttoVonMog]

Is the XM-118LR sold to the public the same ammunition used by the military? For some reason it is in my mind that the rounds used by the military are held to much higher quality control standards, particularly in terms of velocity ES/SD, than what is normally available to the general public and sold as M118LR ammo. Doesn't the "XM" designation indicate that it's surplus/military rejected/overrun ammunition? If it's not the exact ammo used by the military, it would seem like the test wouldn't be very meaningful. Nothing wrong with doing some testing to determine how the rifle performs, but if you really want to test and quantify how well a military rifle setup can shoot, I'd make very sure I was using the exact same ammunition they do.

That is a good question if the Military is keeping the best ammo. From what I understand all this ammo is first run production ammo-- i.e. exactly the same as the Military's ammo. Now, as far as nomenclature X means experimental. It turns out that back in the 1980's when the US armed forces were looking for a new round for the M40's and M24's they had planned on called the ammo a totally new name. That would have caused issues with more costs due to the way the military does things. So, the simple solution was simple, add an X to the front and LR to the back and poof you a new cartridge with similar nomenclature as the original M118. The x is usually dropped from the name but technically the ammo is called XM-118LR. You can thank the Marine Corps' low budget for causing this naming problem.

 

[OttoVonMog]

The question is the XM-118LR the older ammo that had a much greater tendency to show velocity variations under changing temperatures.

 

[wwbrown]

the military LR ammo is marked M118LR, I believe the stuff that is sold to the public is marked XM118LR, if it was the same stuff I imagine it would be labelled as such. The cachet with the sniper has created a market that is real good for anything they can stamp 118 on it.

I have shot a lot (same quantities as you are talking) of FGMM 175 g alongside M118LR in rifles in service and found the FGGM had better accuracy.

I have seen many ammo boxes with M118LR that had M118LR marked boxes inside and no XM118-LR except from civilian sellers. Like I said above the cachet leads to lots of internet rumors.

 

[OttoVonMog]

the military LR ammo is marked M118LR, I believe the stuff that is sold to the public is marked XM118LR, if it was the same stuff I imagine it would be labelled as such. The cachet with the sniper has created a market that is real good for anything they can stamp 118 on it.

I have shot a lot (same quantities as you are talking) of FGMM 175 g alongside M118LR in rifles in service and found the FGGM had better accuracy.

I have seen many ammo boxes with M118LR that had M118LR marked boxes inside and no XM118-LR except from civilian sellers. Like I said above the cachet leads to lots of internet rumors.

my understanding is the civilians are using the original nomenclature that was developed when the ammunition was being originally tested hence the XM. The ammo itself doesn't say X on it but merely M118LR. However, I don't know what the qualities of the ammo are hence the reason I want to test it all out. I think it would be great to see what the FGMM does in comparison to this ammo.

My sneaking suspicion is that the M118LR is probably not that great of an ammo to be honest. But, I want to see what is the realistic accuracy of the M24 SWS can produce in basically field conditions. Just because I think it would be interesting to do so. And it would also be interesting to see what other factory match ammo does in it under similar conditions. So, it is all about just finding out what are the true capabilities of the M24 are under various conditions simulating the field.

Then after that I'm going to start building up real loads for the gun using Berger 175's , 185's , 190's and 210's along with Sierra MK's 175, 180, 190 and 220 grain bullets.

 

[masterblaster1]

Just load up some 4064 at 41.7 and 175 in some lake city and be done. You could tweek it a bit but that is the magic clone load

 

[SWRichmond]

I want to test this ammo and gun combination out in all types of weather from Fall to Summer to see exactly what is the stability and viability of the XM-118LR's accuracy in various conditions.

It sucks.

Compared to quality handloaded ammo using bullets designed to make .308 Win go the distance, M118LR is overpriced junk. I have personally seen some very talented shooters try to shoot it 1K, using fresh rounds, in well built rifles, head to head against quality ammo, and they were all over the place (7's and 8's on the FTR LR target, in every quadrant) in mild conditions. If someone gave me free M118LR I wouldn't even use it for practice, I would sell it. Seriously. The 175 SMK survives only on its reputation, which frankly is no longer deserved IMO. In 2015 it is vastly inferior to many other offerings. It was obsolete years ago.

There are so many better rifles available, and so much better ammo, that I just have to wonder.

It's hard shooting 1K with a 185 Berger Juggernaut, with a G7 BC of 0.283, leaving the barrel at over 2700fps. Why shoot a Sierra 175 SMK, with a G7 BC of 0.243, leaving the barrel at 2580fps? Doing so will turn you off to the very real possibilities presented by the excellent .308Win cartridge.

 

[civil82]

The M24 isn't a secondary system at this point that I'm aware of. All have been (or soon will be) sent back to Big Green for reconfiguration to the M2010. The M110 is still on MTOE for many organizations, also.

It's a shame that they cost what they do. You possibly could have had a cut rifled barrel put on a 700 action and dropped in an HS stock for modest savings. Regardless, good luck and have fun with it.

 

[Quickoz]

Heck, A normal 155.5gr load used for Palma will out perform the M118LR ballistics easy to 1000yds.

 

[OttoVonMog]

I want to test this ammo and gun combination out in all types of weather from Fall to Summer to see exactly what is the stability and viability of the XM-118LR's accuracy in various conditions.

It sucks.

Compared to quality handloaded ammo using bullets designed to make .308 Win go the distance, M118LR is overpriced junk. I have personally seen some very talented shooters try to shoot it 1K, using fresh rounds, in well built rifles, head to head against quality ammo, and they were all over the place (7's and 8's on the FTR LR target, in every quadrant) in mild conditions. If someone gave me free M118LR I wouldn't even use it for practice, I would sell it. Seriously. The 175 SMK survives only on its reputation, which frankly is no longer deserved IMO. In 2015 it is vastly inferior to many other offerings. It was obsolete years ago.

There are so many better rifles available, and so much better ammo, that I just have to wonder.

It's hard shooting 1K with a 185 Berger Juggernaut, with a G7 BC of 0.283, leaving the barrel at over 2700fps. Why shoot a Sierra 175 SMK, with a G7 BC of 0.243, leaving the barrel at 2580fps? Doing so will turn you off to the very real possibilities presented by the excellent .308Win cartridge.

Not the point of my experiment to discover if the M118LR can be out done. I know it can. The point of this experiment is to remove the fact from fiction circularity in the popular press about the capabilities of the US Military Sniper Ammo. And thus determine what sort of accuracy you can expect from the rifle in true field conditions. I have plenty of plans for this rifle shooting either 180's, 190's and possibly even 210's if establish if the 1:11.25 will stabilize them at 1050 yards. So, I agree with you that M118LR ammo is probably more hype then anything else. But I want to test it out to see where exactly fact and fiction collide or never collide.

 

[OttoVonMog]

Just load up some 4064 at 41.7 and 175 in some lake city and be done. You could tweek it a bit but that is the magic clone load

4064 I'm not sure if that is the load they are using actually any more. They've added new stuff to it to reduce flash and add to temperature stability.

 

[OttoVonMog]

I want to test this ammo and gun combination out in all types of weather from Fall to Summer to see exactly what is the stability and viability of the XM-118LR's accuracy in various conditions.

It sucks.

Compared to quality handloaded ammo using bullets designed to make .308 Win go the distance, M118LR is overpriced junk. I have personally seen some very talented shooters try to shoot it 1K, using fresh rounds, in well built rifles, head to head against quality ammo, and they were all over the place (7's and 8's on the FTR LR target, in every quadrant) in mild conditions. If someone gave me free M118LR I wouldn't even use it for practice, I would sell it. Seriously. The 175 SMK survives only on its reputation, which frankly is no longer deserved IMO. In 2015 it is vastly inferior to many other offerings. It was obsolete years ago.

There are so many better rifles available, and so much better ammo, that I just have to wonder.

It's hard shooting 1K with a 185 Berger Juggernaut, with a G7 BC of 0.283, leaving the barrel at over 2700fps. Why shoot a Sierra 175 SMK, with a G7 BC of 0.243, leaving the barrel at 2580fps? Doing so will turn you off to the very real possibilities presented by the excellent .308Win cartridge.

The M24 is a pretty good tactical rifle. Is it a benchrest or F-TR rifle? No. But, when I get bored with the .308 barrel I'll have it worked on and change the caliber to either a 6.5 or 7mm offering. Right now, I just want to play around with a M24 as if it were issued to me during a military action. I have no illusions about the rifle having limitations. I still like it a lot.

 

[joshb]

I want to test this ammo and gun combination out in all types of weather from Fall to Summer to see exactly what is the stability and viability of the XM-118LR's accuracy in various conditions.

It sucks.

Compared to quality handloaded ammo using bullets designed to make .308 Win go the distance, M118LR is overpriced junk. I have personally seen some very talented shooters try to shoot it 1K, using fresh rounds, in well built rifles, head to head against quality ammo, and they were all over the place (7's and 8's on the FTR LR target, in every quadrant) in mild conditions. If someone gave me free M118LR I wouldn't even use it for practice, I would sell it. Seriously. The 175 SMK survives only on its reputation, which frankly is no longer deserved IMO. In 2015 it is vastly inferior to many other offerings. It was obsolete years ago.

There are so many better rifles available, and so much better ammo, that I just have to wonder.

It's hard shooting 1K with a 185 Berger Juggernaut, with a G7 BC of 0.283, leaving the barrel at over 2700fps. Why shoot a Sierra 175 SMK, with a G7 BC of 0.243, leaving the barrel at 2580fps? Doing so will turn you off to the very real possibilities presented by the excellent .308Win cartridge.

Not the point of my experiment to discover if the M118LR can be out done. I know it can. The point of this experiment is to remove the fact from fiction circularity in the popular press about the capabilities of the US Military Sniper Ammo. And thus determine what sort of accuracy you can expect from the rifle in true field conditions. I have plenty of plans for this rifle shooting either 180's, 190's and possibly even 210's if establish if the 1:11.25 will stabilize them at 1050 yards. So, I agree with you that M118LR ammo is probably more hype then anything else. But I want to test it out to see where exactly fact and fiction collide or never collide.

Well then, have fun and enjoy the feedback. Good luck.

 

[navyrad8r]

Otto,
good luck to you on this project. please share your findings! if you are truly testing and don't want to alter any of the rounds then so be it. But FWIW in several of the military matches I shot, it was common to simply bump the bullet, or seat a smidge deeper, to make the oal a little more consistent, and to "crack" the asphalt seal on the bullet so neck tension was a little closer together across the box. this helped me a lot with elevation shots that weren't on me and my sight picture. we used the lee hand loader non mounted press to bump the whole box or batch in the morning. Again good luck to you and PLEASE share your findings.
cheers,
Doc

 

[OttoVonMog]

Otto,
good luck to you on this project. please share your findings! if you are truly testing and don't want to alter any of the rounds then so be it. But FWIW in several of the military matches I shot, it was common to simply bump the bullet, or seat a smidge deeper, to make the oal a little more consistent, and to "crack" the asphalt seal on the bullet so neck tension was a little closer together across the box. this helped me a lot with elevation shots that weren't on me and my sight picture. we used the lee hand loader non mounted press to bump the whole box or batch in the morning. Again good luck to you and PLEASE share your findings.
cheers,
Doc

Well, I want to start off stock ammo. Then I might do as you suggest and alter my testing to include these procedures if they used by military snipers in the field. The more information I can get about the methods employed by military personnel the better. So, give me more tips.