Would you like to see smaller f open targets?

[Alex Wheeler]

3 minute delay and no sighters Thats reading the wind! Nobody has shot a 200 20x yet at LR...

 

[R8e8tion]

Shoot more ranges. Until then, any conjectures can’t be made. Your range is a tunnel range plain and simple. I know your range. I used to belong to it. None of you easternern nebraskans want to come out to west nebraska to shoot because your egos would be crushed.

I don't ever recall seeing you at any ENGC matches Mr Peetz. But since the ENGC range is such a tunnel, I would like to see you come over and run the table on us, witness you breaking some records.

 

[Dgd6mm]

I don't ever recall seeing you at any ENGC matches Mr Peetz. But since the ENGC range is such a tunnel, I would like to see you come over and run the table on us, witness you breaking some records.

I'm just a recreational shooter, but that sounds like a CHALLENGE.

 

[dcali]

Shoot more ranges. Until then, any conjectures can’t be made. Your range is a tunnel range plain and simple. I know your range. I used to belong to it. None of you easternern nebraskans want to come out to west nebraska to shoot because your egos would be crushed.

I'll ignore the needless dig at people who don't want to drive all the way across the state when they have a perfectly good range in town because I know you don't really mean it.

That said, this is exactly my point. I wouldn't call ENGC a wind tunnel, especially since the range renovations, but the magnitude of the winds are usually small enough that there are calibers that cut through it pretty well. With a good setup, Open class is easier at ENGC than other ranges, and we get some seriously high scores. The direction of the wind is tricky enough to keep TR shooters honest, but the open guys just blast through it. Raw accuracy matters a lot more at ENGC.

That's not to say winning Open is easy. It's not. Like I said, you need a 600 to even start to feel secure on most days. A 596 is usually out of the medals.

 

[dcali]

It doesn't matter if you lose by x count, by 10's, by 9's, or by decimal points. It's just a number. You still lost. Conversely, it doesn't matter if you win by any of those, either. You still won.

We have a tie breaker system, Creedmoor rule. As long as ties can be broken by existing rules, and targets can be scored, changing the rules at this point is just juggling numbers and creating additional complexity at matches.

I think the problem is that under some conditions at mid range - 600 and under, and especially 500 and 300, it does get hard to score the matches with confidence. It's not a huge problem at 600, but I could see some calm days at big matches where it becomes an issue.

 

[Lbart]

I think the problem is that under some conditions at mid range - 600 and under, and especially 500 and 300, it does get hard to score the matches with confidence. It's not a huge problem at 600, but I could see some calm days at big matches where it becomes an issue.

i can't see where smaller targets would help this. Leave the targets alone, remove 300 & 500 from the FC National's CoF.

 

[dcali]

i can't see where smaller targets would help this. Leave the targets alone, remove 300 & 500 from the FC National's CoF.

You're right, they wouldn't. They'd make it worse. It's kind of a problem. If shooters get better, the scores will keep going up to the point where they need ot be smaller, and at that point, we have no way to accurately score them.

 

[ScottyB]

i can't see where smaller targets would help this. Leave the targets alone, remove 300 & 500 from the FC National's CoF.

Just shoot pairs; that should help get the scores under control AND address the bench rest comparisons!

 

[memilanuk]

^ what he said!

 

[Cochran]

^ what he said!

+1

 

[Immike]

Just shoot pairs; that should help get the scores under control AND address the bench rest comparisons!

Even more so with electronics.

 

[XTR]

@ScottyB unfortunately I can only give one "like"

 

[Rope2horns]

Lol pair firing at 300yrds....yup that will solve everything.

 

[Lbart]

Scott, Monte and Jeff,
I am not a great fan of pair firing due to bad experiences with shooting partners in major matches and I don’t see pair firing as a solution to target size. There is no problem with the size of the targets, only with the distance we shoot at some of those targets. If you shoot 2 top shooters at the same target you are going to have twice as many holes in the middle. Are you going to stop firing in the middle of a string to re-center the target?

 

[XTR]

Larry, nothing is going to fix 300 yards in F class, the center of the target gets destroyed, scoring more than 10 shots on that target is painful as a puller. I've said/thought for yrs we need a 4 center center face for F class if we were going to shoot @ 300. Shoot 5 on each. Beyond 300 I think the targets are fine, but the mid-range F Open guys are chasing possibles pretty hard at 600 yards.

As to shooting pairs, it does solve the time delay problem with e targets. We could quit mucking with the software and shoot all e target matches pair fired, and life is easy. I haven't shot as many international matches as you have, but the ones in which I have participated I've never had an experience that I thought was awful, some were not ideal but not the kind that made me feel the pair was overly detrimental to my score, and I've made it a point to shoot most of the Fullbore matches in the last few yrs.

 

[Damfino]

Personally, it would be a little disappointing to see smaller targets/X ring for F-class for 600 yards. The sport continues to evolve and scores are getting higher, but at the AEDC 600 yard range in Tullahoma, TN the 600s I've witnessed to date have been extremely rare and the result of lots of hard work, attention to detail, self-discipline, and done by very talented and experienced shooters.

I'll just add that in my most recent match, the AEDC Mid-Range (600 yards) Regional, the first 2 relays I shot cleans and was mired in 2nd or 3rd place (damn!), but it was EXCITING and FUN! The 3rd relay quickly reminded me that poor shooting is very easy to do and not nearly as much fun.

 

[Cochran]

I have no stats to back this up but it seems to me pair fired scores are generally lower than strings so less shots chewing up the centers.
Either way, someone needs to produce an adhesive backed center no bigger than the 10 ring. It could even be slapped on in the middle of a string with no disruption.

Larry
You certainly can draw a bad partner in a pair fired match but in my experience, it’s no worse than drawing a bad relay.
Neither are as bad as getting stuck on a bad firing point on an unfair range. Especially one like Raton. I have faith the powers that be will keep it as fair as possible by rotating everyone about 30 firing points between each string at the nationals.

 

[okshooter]

Jeff,

Someone does make an adhesive backed 8.5"X11" center, but the NRA highpower committee won't get off their asses to approve there use in approved or registered matches. One was even provided to them and when I followed up with them after the meeting, I was told that they were presented with two options and couldn't choose one. My question is why do they have to choose one? It seems to me that if a target meets standards it should be approved, wether there is one option or many.

Keith

 

[MattPeetz]

I don't ever recall seeing you at any ENGC matches Mr Peetz. But since the ENGC range is such a tunnel, I would like to see you come over and run the table on us, witness you breaking some records.

I have no desire to shoot where it’s just pull the trigger. Give me a range with 2-3 minute switches very fast. Work for your score. A hard fought 588 score on a tough range will always be better than a trigger pulling match.
You become a much better shooter shooting in the wind that tests you as a shooter.

 

[rardoin]

Jeff,

Someone does make an adhesive backed 8.5"X11" center, but the NRA highpower committee won't get off their asses to approve there use in approved or registered matches. One was even provided to them and when I followed up with them after the meeting, I was told that they were presented with two options and couldn't choose one. My question is why do they have to choose one? It seems to me that if a target meets standards it should be approved, wether there is one option or many.

Keith

The same fellow also makes an adhesive X ring repair center. We use both and it makes a change out easy. I agree that the committee should set a standard and if the manufacturer meets that standard, it should be accepted.