Winchester Staball Match Garand Loads

[Thepng]

Has anyone here used Win Staball Match for M1 Garand loads? I primarily use Hodgdon's website for my load data, and they don't have WSBM listed for the M1 loads (but they do show W748). Strangely, for 308 service rifle load data, they show WSBM but not 748. It almost seems like they are purposefully not showing data allowing a direct comparison between WSBM and 748.

Anyways, I have a bunch of staball match that I got for a great deal a year ago, and it seems like it should work for garand loads since it's right around Varget and 748 in burn speed on Hodgdon's chart. Would love to hear if anyone has tried it before, seen load data, or have thoughts on what an M1 load should be with WSBM.

Given the dearth of load data at garand levels, would it make sense to work up (or down) a ladder in a bolt rifle until I find the right velocity range for the garand?




Thanks!

 

[jpjulian]

IMR4064 is ideal for the pressure requirements for an M1. Absent proper data for StaBall Match, you might choose a 4064 velocity that is appropriate for the M1 and then choose a similar velocity StaBall Match should provide. I wouldn't work up a bolt action load and then try to apply it to the M1. You might also send Hodgdon an email and ask if they have data for an M1 using StaBall Match. Be careful with the pressures with an M1 or M1A. Parts get expensive.

 

[Paul's Black Rifles]

Slow burn rate powder can bend the op rod I'm told. I'd stick to published service rifle loads. Bolt action, that is a different story. Just be careful with the Grand it is a nice rifle.
Paul

 

[Thepng]

Slow burn rate powder can bend the op rod I'm told. I'd stick to published service rifle loads. Bolt action, that is a different story. Just be careful with the Grand it is a nice rifle.
Paul

Thanks for the response! Both 748 and Varget are classic Garand powders with specific listed M1 loads in various manuals as well as frequent use in CMP forum load data. WSBM has the same (or pretty darn close) burn rates theoretically at least.

I emailed Hodgdon and will see if they respond.

 

[cmysix]

Why not WIN 760? it was made for the 30-06 and it's a ball powder.

 

[Jeremy2171]

Slow burn rate powder can bend the op rod I'm told. I'd stick to published service rifle loads. Bolt action, that is a different story. Just be careful with the Grand it is a nice rifle.
Paul

Not really an issue.

Work up some loads with it and it'll be fine.

 

[D the D]

N135 is a perfect powder for the M1 Garand. Dave Emory, former head at Hornady ballistic lab, stated on the CMP forum that 46.3g of N135 with 168g AMAX or Matchking was the most accurate load tested and originally the chosen load for Hodgdon's Camp Perry match ammo contract. Vihtavuori wasn't able to deliver the required volume of powder on time so Hornady switched to Re15 or Varget.

https://forums.thecmp.org/forum/cmp...043-hornady-ammo-duplication-as-issued-by-cmp

https://forums.thecmp.org/forum/cmp...ady-ammo-duplication-as-issued-by-cmp?t=29638

 

[Doom]

Why not WIN 760? it was made for the 30-06 and it's a ball powder.

The M1 was not designed as a 30-06 but it uses a 30-06 cartridge. It has specific requirements that dictate the functioning of the gas system. A slow burning powder may be more than safe for the chamber but higher port pressure will cause excessive force in the reloading system and result in a bent operating rod rendering the rifle useless. General guidelines are to shoot bullets 180gr or less and powders not slower than IMR 4320.

 

[danny]

Given the dearth of load data at garand levels, would it make sense to work up (or down) a ladder in a bolt rifle until I find the right velocity range for the garand?



Thanks!

No, it would not make sense. Anything you work up for loads in a bolt gun only applies to that exact bolt gun. Work up your loads in the Garand, for that Garand. Worry more that you have a good unitized front handguard, a good bedding job, trigger and NM Sights than your load. Have a reasonable load with good commercial loads, but don't go crazy with load development.

Danny

 

[D the D]

H
Given the dearth of load data at garand levels, would it make sense to work up (or down) a ladder in a bolt rifle until I find the right velocity range for the garand?

There's no dearth of data for Garand loads. Hodgdon has dedicated data online
( Hodgdon M1 Data ) and Hornady has an extensive section in their manual. Also, the link below has the Hornady data posted in it.
Bearblain Highpower Competition Data

 

[Doom]

I just noticed that Hodgdon no longer lists IMR 4320 in their burn rate chart. The Garand is capable of using powders up to the burn rate of N140. Vihtavouri states that N150 is too slow for the Garand as it is closer to IMR 4350 burn rate in the 30-06 case.

I will also add that just because 2 powders are close together on the chart does not mean that they are close in burn rate. For instance Accurate 2460 and IMR 4895 are 7 slots apart but share a large comparability in actual usage. On the other hand N140 and Alliant 2000MR are 8 slots apart but share far fewer comparable charges and cartridges and perform far differently.

As has probably been noted a chronograph is extremely helpful when looking at loads for the Garand. With the proper powders a 150 gr bullet should not exceed 2800 fps. A 165/168 gr should not exceed 2650 to 2750 fps depending on the powder.

 

[Laurie]

I just noticed that Hodgdon no longer lists IMR 4320 in their burn rate chart

Hodgdon withdrew 4320 a year or two back.

 

[Doom]

Hodgdon withdrew 4320 a year or two back.

Actually they announced it further back but it kept showing up. Not having that data is going to give new Garand shooters a problem.

By the way is there a good link to current REACH compliant powders?

 

[Laurie]

By the way is there a good link to current REACH compliant powders?

Probably no. I can set them out here easily enough though.

100% Compliant

All Alliant powders (including Gen Dynamics St. Marks manufactured Power-Pro grades)

All Vihtavuori powders

All Norma powders

All Lovex (Czech manufactured) powders including those distributed / sold in the US as Shooters World products.

All Nitrochemie Wimmis powders (Reload Swiss in Europe; three or four sold in the US as Alliant grades).

All Ramshot ball powders (from P.B. Clermont in Belgium)


The remainder either fall into the 100% non-compliant, or mixed largely non-compliant groups


100% non-compliant

All post-2003 Accurate brand grades whether ball or extruded. (This may not just be REACH for the ball powders as Western Powders didn't apply for CE certification for its range other than Ramshot brand products. Now that Accurate is part of the Hodgdon group, the new management has the option of doing so for any which are reach-compliant.)

All IMR powders bar the five 'Endurons' which are either out of production or in a dubious position. (They still turn up in the UK, but this may be old, pre discontinuation stock.)

All Hodgdon brand extruded/tubular grades in the 'Extreme' range made by ADI in Australia.


Mixed

All Winchester powders are non-compliant bar the three relatively new StaBALL grades which are compliant.

Most Hodgdon brand 'sphericals' made by Gen Dynamics St. Marks are non-compliant. The (compliant) exceptions are relatively recent introductions, that is the CFEs, Superformance, Leverevolution, Li'l Gun and the UK distributor also lists US869 on its website.


These notes refer to rifle propellants. Many (most? all?) older US manufactured pistol / shotgun powders are Reach-compliant and still available over here under the Alliant, Hodgdon, and Winchester brand names.

 

[D the D]

One can also note that most burn rate charts still list VV N135 as slower than IMR4895. VV reformulated about two decades ago and in actual use you will note in published reloading data that it is actually a hair faster than H4895, almost identical speed to Ramshot TAC.
Also, N140 is an appropriate alternative to Varget and RE15. Not the same data, of course, just an alternative that is close in performance.

 

[Thepng]

Hodgdon recently released some new load data for M1 service rifle. They have staball match now, very excited to have load data for that powder since I bought a bunch really cheap a couple of years ago!

I was also surprised to see that they include CFE 223 powder for Garand loads now. It seems like they have included a couple of additional powders too. I don’t think they used to have Accurate 4064 either when I posted this a year ago.

 

[M60A3TTS]

I've shot BLC2, TAC ,and 4064 through my M1. I wouldn't hesitate to run the Staball