Wilson Steel Bushing vs Redding Nitride

[centershot]

This is going to sound wierd. I have been using a Wilson Steel bushing, .240", in a Wilson sizer for loading .222. It has a .246 neck. I decided that the case was being sized too much so I ordered a Redding Nitride bushing .241".I sized a few cases and proceeded to load a bullet. The handle on my arbor press was harder to pull while seating the bullet with the .241" bushing vs the .240". I measured both bushings using Starett hole gauges and a 1" mic. They both read the correct size. The larger bushing was sizing the neck of the casing more than the smaller one was, creating more seating tention. Any thoughts on this?

 

[BoydAllen]

I think that the difference may be in the shape of the transition area before the ID of the bushings.

 

[Brians356]

How long do you let the neck "linger" inside the bushing before retracting the case? Same for both types?

Are all the cases identical WRT number of times fired (since new or since last annealing)?

 

[SmokinJoe]

Also, I have a suspicion that the coated bushings are smaller than noted, as in a .241" bushing that is then TiN coated being smaller by the thickness of the coating X2. Anyone else seen this? Gotten to where I use the size stamped on the bushing as reference only.

 

[Joe Salt]

I have two 309 Bushing that I us to measure dia. of my bullet but I had to hand pic them, but one is larger than the other. Some bullets go through both but I have changed lots# and the bullets will go though one but not the other. So you may have the same thing, no one makes them all perfect.

Joe Salt

 

[/VH]

Also, I have a suspicion that the coated bushings are smaller than noted, as in a .241" bushing that is then TiN coated being smaller by the thickness of the coating X2. Anyone else seen this? Gotten to where I use the size stamped on the bushing as reference only.

I don't have a good way to measure the ID of a bushing but judging by mic'ing the OD of sized necks and seating force, by feel, it seems to me that may be the case, as well. I also concern myself more with the result of using a bushing than the actual size of it or the number stamped on it.

 

[Brians356]

Also, I have a suspicion that the coated bushings are smaller than noted, as in a .241" bushing that is then TiN coated being smaller by the thickness of the coating X2. Anyone else seen this? Gotten to where I use the size stamped on the bushing as reference only.

I noted in another thread that I have gauged my 17 Redding bushings with pin gages, and did find all 8 of the TiN bushings were at or near .001" smaller than marked, but also 6 of 9 plain bushings were small as well. Sample size is small, but it suggests TiN are more likely to gauge small.

 

[Littlecooner]

Many years ago, I was told that the Wilson bushings were 0.0005" different on the bottom than the top. I do know when I was shooting bench rest every week end, that I could turn my bushing over and change neck tension at times. Now, I have probably 25-30 bushings, mostly Wilson but several redding and the redding are mostly nitride. Most of my Wilson bushings appear to have a different diameter on one end vs the other but some mike exactly the same. Same thing with the reddings, but most of them appear to be the same on both ends. My high dollar dial calipers do not produce the exact number on the bushing sometimes. I am like a previous poster. I do not care what the number says on the die. I am looking for actual conformance on neck tension and have my "feel" as I seat the bullet and just adjust bushings for what I want to feel as I seat the bullets and if loading for actual competition, just set that one brass aside that does not feel like all the rest. All this typing aside, I have a quick easy fix for the OP's problem - order a Redding nitride bushing in .242 and start using it. You might want to turn that Redding bushing over and see what the end results are, which could save you a little pocket change on another bushing.

 

[JohnHenry]

Many years ago, I was told that the Wilson bushings were 0.0005" different on the bottom than the top. I do know when I was shooting bench rest every week end, that I could turn my bushing over and change neck tension at times. Now, I have probably 25-30 bushings, mostly Wilson but several redding and the redding are mostly nitride. Most of my Wilson bushings appear to have a different diameter on one end vs the other but some mike exactly the same. Same thing with the reddings, but most of them appear to be the same on both ends. My high dollar dial calipers do not produce the exact number on the bushing sometimes. I am like a previous poster. I do not care what the number says on the die. I am looking for actual conformance on neck tension and have my "feel" as I seat the bullet and just adjust bushings for what I want to feel as I seat the bullets and if loading for actual competition, just set that one brass aside that does not feel like all the rest. All this typing aside, I have a quick easy fix for the OP's problem - order a Redding nitride bushing in .242 and start using it. You might want to turn that Redding bushing over and see what the end results are, which could save you a little pocket change on another bushing.

It is also my understanding that the ID of the Wilson bushings have a .0005 taper. Told that years ago by Bob Pease.

 

[ASbobcat]

Also, I have a suspicion that the coated bushings are smaller than noted, as in a .241" bushing that is then TiN coated being smaller by the thickness of the coating X2. Anyone else seen this? Gotten to where I use the size stamped on the bushing as reference only.

TN bushing size .001 smaller than the number stamped due to thickness of the coating. I have many of them and the number is always exactly the same.

 

[ASbobcat]

Many years ago, I was told that the Wilson bushings were 0.0005" different on the bottom than the top. I do know when I was shooting bench rest every week end, that I could turn my bushing over and change neck tension at times. Now, I have probably 25-30 bushings, mostly Wilson but several redding and the redding are mostly nitride. Most of my Wilson bushings appear to have a different diameter on one end vs the other but some mike exactly the same. Same thing with the reddings, but most of them appear to be the same on both ends. My high dollar dial calipers do not produce the exact number on the bushing sometimes. I am like a previous poster. I do not care what the number says on the die. I am looking for actual conformance on neck tension and have my "feel" as I seat the bullet and just adjust bushings for what I want to feel as I seat the bullets and if loading for actual competition, just set that one brass aside that does not feel like all the rest. All this typing aside, I have a quick easy fix for the OP's problem - order a Redding nitride bushing in .242 and start using it. You might want to turn that Redding bushing over and see what the end results are, which could save you a little pocket change on another bushing.

I was told the same thing about Redding steel bushings. I have never checked my TN's, but will now and report what I find.
There is another potential issue with the TN's. I found one that scratched necks badly. I found a definite "ledge" on the inside edge of the bevel. Sent it back to Redding and they replaced it free, but it cost me $7 shipping. I inspect all my bushings now, and feel for ledges with a dental pick. You will usually find that one side has a smoother transition from bevel to resizing surface.
Redding says to use them all inverted because of the raised stamping, but I find the bevel more important when choosing right side up or up side down.

 

[ASbobcat]

This is going to sound wierd. I have been using a Wilson Steel bushing, .240", in a Wilson sizer for loading .222. It has a .246 neck. I decided that the case was being sized too much so I ordered a Redding Nitride bushing .241".I sized a few cases and proceeded to load a bullet. The handle on my arbor press was harder to pull while seating the bullet with the .241" bushing vs the .240". I measured both bushings using Starett hole gauges and a 1" mic. They both read the correct size. The larger bushing was sizing the neck of the casing more than the smaller one was, creating more seating tention. Any thoughts on this?

Forgot to mention that brians356 is correct in pointing out that you should anneal all first so you're comparing "apples to apples" for neck tension.

 

[Brians356]

TN bushing size .001 smaller than the number stamped due to thickness of the coating. I have many of them and the number is always exactly the same.

I measured (w/ pin gages) and documented all my many Redding bushings, a mixture of plain and TN, but did not notice such a predictable pattern, although it had occurred to me. Tonight I will review my list again with this in mind and report back.
-

 

[Darrel Martin]

Over the years it dawned on me that bushings vary , and that the two ends of the same bushing may vary.You have to verify by checking the outside diameter of the neck of the sized brass. The same phenomenon can be seen in ogive checkers such as Hornady's lock-n-load system. I bought a second set of ogive checkers to sort bearing surfaces and did not pay attention to which one I used to check my loads. Finally realized that some would have a few thousandths difference on the same loaded round if measured with both ogive checkers. Enough to throw the load out of tune if you use the wrong one to set up your dies. I now number the ogive checker and the base that holds it in order to always measure with the same tools.

 

[ireload2]

Quote
In most applications a coating of less than 5 micrometres (0.00020 in) is applied.
I think you will find you cannot measure the thickness of the coating. These coatings if applied by PVD or CVD are very thin ceramic coatings.

I have no use for the coated bushings. If there is a problem with one it can only be polished with diamond paste (which removes the coating) or it has to be returned. The steel bushings can be polished oversize, chamfered, radiused or tapered as required.

Also, I have a suspicion that the coated bushings are smaller than noted, as in a .241" bushing that is then TiN coated being smaller by the thickness of the coating X2. Anyone else seen this? Gotten to where I use the size stamped on the bushing as reference only.

 

[Brians356]

Update:

Looking at my list of gaged Redding bushings, amazingly 100% of the TiN bushings gaged 0.001" smaller than marked, all 9 of them. However, of the 15 plain bushings, 8 of them also gaged 0.001" smaller. At least the TiNs are more consistent.
-

 

[ASbobcat]

Quote
In most applications a coating of less than 5 micrometres (0.00020 in) is applied.
I think you will find you cannot measure the thickness of the coating. These coatings if applied by PVD or CVD are very thin ceramic coatings.

I have no use for the coated bushings. If there is a problem with one it can only be polished with diamond paste (which removes the coating) or it has to be returned. The steel bushings can be polished oversize, chamfered, radiused or tapered as required.

The operative word there is "most". Whatever process Redding uses, theirs is obviously thicker. Redding's own tech people will give you the same .0005 number.

 

[ASbobcat]

Over the years it dawned on me that bushings vary , and that the two ends of the same bushing may vary.You have to verify by checking the outside diameter of the neck of the sized brass. The same phenomenon can be seen in ogive checkers such as Hornady's lock-n-load system. I bought a second set of ogive checkers to sort bearing surfaces and did not pay attention to which one I used to check my loads. Finally realized that some would have a few thousandths difference on the same loaded round if measured with both ogive checkers. Enough to throw the load out of tune if you use the wrong one to set up your dies. I now number the ogive checker and the base that holds it in order to always measure with the same tools.

I revisited my 10 Redding TN bushings. Early ones (maybe more than 10 years old) have a radius inside, while newer ones have a bevel. The Redding tech acknowledged that this change was made for production expedience. I noticed on all the newer ones that the bevel on each end is different. If you examine them with a magnifying glass you will notice that one end will almost always have a smoother transition from bevel to tunnel. I plan to use them with this side down (first contact with case mouth) regardless of Redding's recommendation to use stamped side down.

 

[Brians356]

I should add that I use ubiquitous Class ZZ pin gages, "minus" type" which are 0.0002" smaller than their nominal size. So, If a .301 gage will not quite enter a ".301" bushing, it means the bushing is smaller than ~.3008". But when the .300 gage "falls through" the same bushing, with no "feel", it suggests the bushing is probably more like .0005" undersize, rather than the full .001".

The fact that all my TiN bushings are like this suggests that the TiN coating is indeed probably ~.0005" thick, but it also suggests that Redding select only bushings which are not already undersize for the TiN treatment. Otherwise, some of the TiN bushings would finish up more than a full .001" undersize. I don't know how else to explain the consistency of the TiN bushings.
-

 

[Brians356]

If you examine them with a magnifying glass you will notice that one end will almost always have a smoother transition from bevel to tunnel. I plan to use them with this side down (first contact with case mouth) regardless of Redding's recommendation to use stamped side down.

So, with your set, is there no correlation between which end is stamped and which is smooth?

Also, does every bushing have one, and only one, smooth transition?

Finally, how do you tell the older bushings from newer ones? (I have a couple with a different looking stamping - the numbers are "thicker" and the stamping more pronounced or deeper. The others look more like they were etched rather than stamped.)
-