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Will 95gr VLD make it at 800m?

I am doing some conceptual thinking while preparing for 2022 season. I picked up 4 F-class matches where you have ranges either surrounded by forest or located in an old sand mine also surrounded by forest. My main assumption is that (a) you can come across 5-6 km/h wind worst case scenario during a match, (b) there have been cases where people shooting 6BR outshot people using .284/6.5s. I would call it an optimistic assumption. I have very promising results with 95gr at 100m, so the question is whether it can be relied on during an F-class match.
If not, I am considering also using 95gr at 300m and 105gr at 600m and 800m.
 
The 90 VLDs run out to 1000 in my 22-250 AI with great results. I've shot the 95s from my 243 win out to 800 on steel but they are hunting bullets and with no wind did very well. In no or very little wind conditions, the lighter bullet/recoil combination does often beat heavier bullet/recoil set ups no doubt. Once mama nature comes out to play, it's time to put away the lightweights and get out the heavier bullets. Even if they are the same BC bullet, heavier wins in wind.
 
The 90 VLDs run out to 1000 in my 22-250 AI with great results. I've shot the 95s from my 243 win out to 800 on steel but they are hunting bullets and with no wind did very well. In no or very little wind conditions, the lighter bullet/recoil combination does often beat heavier bullet/recoil set ups no doubt. Once mama nature comes out to play, it's time to put away the lightweights and get out the heavier bullets. Even if they are the same BC bullet, heavier wins in wind.
what kind of wind would make you switch to .284?
 
I will say that my .224 with 90s beats my 243 with 95s in wind also. At least at 600-800. I'd say it's because the BC is much higher with the 224/90s.
 
The BC describes all flight dynamics, including crosswinds.
Calculation of a BC includes the mass of the object - so it's already accounted for.
In theory your correct. On paper they have identical flight characteristics but in the field they do not. When we shoot my 338 with 300 Berger's in wind that's pretty significant vs my buddy's 300NM running the 245 with the same BC, my 338 holds in wind better Everytime. He shoots it better than his rifle in identical conditions Everytime as do I. I use to think my 6.5-284 could shoot with my 284s also when in wind. Same BC but the 284 running heavier bullets holds up better in wind. I know it's not what you will read in any book in bullets and characteristics based on BC but in real world conditions, it's just how it works. Ask any ELR shooter and he'll tell you the same.
 
Let’s say I have two boats that weigh exactly the same but one boat is 100ft long and 20ft high the other is 80 feet long and 15 feet high, assuming the hull and superstructure are roughly the same design, which one will hold the wind better?
 
Jelenko was correct above where he points out the BC already contains the mass of the bullet by definition, so the only points to argue would be kinetic energy or velocity difference. It is likely that these arguments are going off track because in the real world, you cannot ignore energy.

In the OP's case, he needs to study both, the BC as well as the typical speeds a given cartridge gets with that class bullet. It isn't one or the other, in the real world it is both at the same time. In the real world, pressure and energy matter just as much as BC, so you don't get to ignore any of them.

We can game it out with examples where we play the typical speeds or match them using 284winner's examples. Lets use a full value 15 mph cross wind at 1000 yards as a standard to make this less typing.

Since 284winner didn't state the speeds of those specific rifles, I will use a typical value for each. If you don't like mine, feel free to use your own. Mine are indicative of typical values, nothing special.

If we take the 338 LM with a BC of 0.417 at 2725 fps, we get a drift of 74.37"
If we take the 300 NM with a BC of .413 at 2857 fps we get a drift of 69.94"

So the 30 NM will shoot inside of the 338 in that example.

Now lets match their speed, which would be completely hypothetical but to illustrate the point. This won't happen in a real world situation since the muzzle energy and material limits would stop us in our tracks if we try to hot rod something, and on the other end we have no reason to slow a 300 NM down to the same speeds at the 338 LP.

If we take the 338 with a BC of 0.417 at 2775 fps, we get that same drift of 74.37"
If we take the 30 NM with a BC of 0.413 and slow it to the same 2775 we get a drift of.... 75.27"

So, the BC already has the mass accounted for, but aerodynamic drag does not. That is the difference between the two values. However, just because we match BC, does not typically put the two similar BC values on the same field. We still have energy and velocity to account for with fluid dynamics and external ballistics.

I have no reason to believe 284winner's observations are wrong, it is just likely that the speeds of the two individual examples are not accounted for in those observations. We are either very hot with the 338 or very cold with the 300 NM for their wind drift to reverse performance in 284winner's example.
 
In theory your correct. On paper they have identical flight characteristics but in the field they do not. When we shoot my 338 with 300 Berger's in wind that's pretty significant vs my buddy's 300NM running the 245 with the same BC, my 338 holds in wind better Everytime. He shoots it better than his rifle in identical conditions Everytime as do I. I use to think my 6.5-284 could shoot with my 284s also when in wind. Same BC but the 284 running heavier bullets holds up better in wind. I know it's not what you will read in any book in bullets and characteristics based on BC but in real world conditions, it's just how it works. Ask any ELR shooter and he'll tell you the same.
No personal experience but that is what I have read and what I have heard as well. I am thinking it is to do with momentum. I thought the BC was the aerodynamic side of it (like drag) which has nothing to do with energy/momentum. Because of the heavier mass, it takes a higher change in momentum to get it moving. But I have not analyzed bullet flight mathematically so not 100% sure.
 
The BC describes all flight dynamics, including crosswinds.
Calculation of a BC includes the mass of the object - so it's already accounted for.
I believe that shooters have found that there is a factor that favors the heavier bullet that is not accounted for by BC. We need to remember that ballistic formulas are attempts to mirror actual bullet behavior, but if actual firing shows a dependency I believe that we need to believe our targets.
 
I believe that shooters have found that there is a factor that favors the heavier bullet that is not accounted for by BC. We need to remember that ballistic formulas are attempts to mirror actual bullet behavior, but if actual firing shows a dependency I believe that we need to believe our targets.
This is true. It's a factor that many do not tend to believe until actually shooting. The theoretical belief seems to be held as the standard. It's believable that a 245 grain 308 bullet and a 300 grain 338 bullet with identical BC's with a MV of 3000 fps will have identical ballistics(only an example assuming BC is close in both bullets). This is true in a tunnel with zero wind. Once wind is present, the picture becomes completely different and completely in favor of the heavier projectile. The shooters that have done the work, will agree 100%. Those that have not seem to follow the theory of ballistics and it is just not so. ELR competitions show this with the 338 caliber and up being the winner of these events predominantly. While It's still a blast shooting the smaller caliber cartridges at these extreme ranges with excellent success and low recoil no doubt, the big bore heavies get the job done more successfully. I still prefer the 90 grain .224 over the 95 grain .244 bullet to 800 yards. I think it's close in terms of over all accuracy in wind conditions but the edge (for me ) has been with the 90 VLD (.224). I can't shoot the 95 due to lack of stability. It would definitely be the winner in this comparison.
 
This is true. It's a factor that many do not tend to believe until actually shooting. The theoretical belief seems to be held as the standard. It's believable that a 245 grain 308 bullet and a 300 grain 338 bullet with identical BC's with a MV of 3000 fps will have identical ballistics(only an example assuming BC is close in both bullets). This is true in a tunnel with zero wind. Once wind is present, the picture becomes completely different and completely in favor of the heavier projectile. The shooters that have done the work, will agree 100%. Those that have not seem to follow the theory of ballistics and it is just not so. ELR competitions show this with the 338 caliber and up being the winner of these events predominantly. While It's still a blast shooting the smaller caliber cartridges at these extreme ranges with excellent success and low recoil no doubt, the big bore heavies get the job done more successfully. I still prefer the 90 grain .224 over the 95 grain .244 bullet to 800 yards. I think it's close in terms of over all accuracy in wind conditions but the edge (for me ) has been with the 90 VLD (.224). I can't shoot the 95 due to lack of stability. It would definitely be the winner in this comparison.
I have not seen what you have at all, and I have had to estimate wind holds on things that most normal folks will never have to as part of my job. You are entitled to your own disbelief, but beginners reading here should not go down that path as a result because the vast experience of the industry and the models are well established.

I too was skeptical as a young start in the business, but as a young student scientist I had much to learn from the ballisticians at my company, the national labs, and armories. We all get to learn in different ways but you must remember that it is one thing to have your own suspicions about external ballistics and another to lead more folks down the wrong path about solidly established ballistics.

If you have low or little faith in your ballistic solver in terms of the ability to predict windage of a common small arm, there is probably not more I can do or say to convince you, but while I wait on my girls I will try to prevent some youngsters from accepting the wrong theory.

There is lots of nuance to internal ballistics when it comes to pushing state of the art, on that we can all agree. We can hardly predict things when it comes to group size or what matters when it comes to BR level shooting. We let the competition at well attended events establish our expectation of performance level should be. But when it comes to the bit about external ballistics being discussed here, we are in a pretty secure place with ballistic solvers that you can play with for free on the internet. I have already run the examples in post #13 above.

I am not calling you out, and please don't take this post the wrong way. As what I hope becomes a favor to you and the rest, allow me to bring the benefit of a long career where I was responsible for putting ordinance on targets. For practical purposes, you can give yourself a better intuition by playing with the results of the ballistics solvers if you don't want to drag yourself through a whole study of ballistics.

You need not take the word of a retired aerospace/defence guy. I have no idea what you saw on that day, or what your experience is when it comes to playing with something like a Kestrel and a ballistic solver over a very wide variety of projectile weights, but imagine the uproar of complaints if those were all as wrong as you are suggesting?

Here is an example set you can run for yourself that helps illustrate why your observations were an anomaly of the day and not the way things work.

If we standardize on a 15 mph full value wind and distance of 1000 yards to make this simple. Take your favorite ballistics solver and estimate the windage of two bullets of equal BC and as much difference in mass as you can find. Since we are discussing bullet weight, I will try to find real ones with as much difference as possible but with the same BC to help illustrate the point.

Make the speeds the same and check the trajectory. Finding the examples isn't easy for the very reason that mass is part of BC, but I find the Berger 7mm 184 F-Open comes up in the 284 Win enough to be popular, and the heavy end of the Berger 6.5 153.5 would be good for illustration since the difference in mass is roughly 20% yet they closely match for BC. This should convince anyone who has used a modern ballistic solver and a Kestrel on an honest range to estimate wind.

Berger 7mm 184 F-Open G7 0.356 @2800 fps ..................................... wind drift is 87.16"
Berger 6.5mm 153.3 Long Range Hybrid G7 0.356 @2800 fps ....... wind drift is 87.16"

In fact, even their drop would be identical even though there is a 20% difference in their mass. So, at the same given speed, with a matched BC, your earlier observations would have been due to a bad day and not the difference in weight because the BC accounts for it. YMMV
 
Ballistic solvers don't always tell the real (true) environmental story. Heavy wins when all else is equal in bad conditions, unlike on perfect calm windless days. My ballistic solver is actual experience in the field. It's not one trip to the range that determined this for me, Its been numerous trips. I have little experience compared to many of the shooter's here in this site. IF what you are saying is the case, why are there not more 7mm and/or 30 caliber ELR rigs if the heavy 7s and 30s equal the bigger 338/375s when they offer much less recoil ? The answer is simple. I explained it. I'm not taking your response as calling me out. Tough to be called out for reporting fact and my experiences in the field. I have range friends that have had that belief and range results with them proved that heavy bullets of equal value and velocity out perform lighter ones in wind. I don't mean 400-1000 yards. These were field results from 1500-2000 yards with steady winds and results were consistent that the heaviest bullets (300 grain/338) maintained better consistency and less windage was necessary. You can disagree with my experience but it doesn't change those facts. Range results often times proves theory incorrect in my experience. I can say that my 6.5-284's w/140s vs my .284s w/162s do not seem to be as far apart in similar shooting conditions. In fact, they do shoot inside each other's groups. I only really seem to see this going into the heavier bigger bore bullets comparing those to the 7mm/30 heavies of similar ballistic coefficient. Exact cartridge compared was 300NM w/245s vs 338 LM improved w/300s at 3000 fps. We do it weekly for several months annually and results are always the same in windy shooting conditions.
 
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