Widcat on .225 Winchester
- Thread starter dedogs
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Hope you guys are still checking this thread. I was looking for some info on this same topic. I have .219 Wasp from EA Brown single shot falling block, but got the itch to do something unique. I was thinking of a .19 Caliber Wasp based on the .219 case, but then had some additional thoughts of using the .225 Winchester case, but changing to a 30 degree shoulder like the Wasp case. The .19 Caliber is a speciality of Calhoon (http://www.jamescalhoon.com) and I like the odd size of it all to make it unique. I see that defogs is going along the same path with a .20 Cal.
So I can use the .219 forming dies to put a 30 degree on the .225 case then neck down to .19. Still not decided what rifle to use bolt action or another single shot?
So I can use the .219 forming dies to put a 30 degree on the .225 case then neck down to .19. Still not decided what rifle to use bolt action or another single shot?
drwhite55,
A .19 on the .225 would definitely be unique to say the least. I would probably not do a cartridge on this bullet unless there was a good source for them besides Calhoun or I had what I considered a lifetime supply of them already in hand . Same with the brass. As stated by me earlier, I was fortunate to get quite a few at an estate sale for a very reasonable price. Another piece of advice I can give is that regardless the age of whatever .225 Winchester brass you aquire I highly recomend that you anneal it properly before changing shoulder/neck. .225 Winchester brass is very thick with an extremely thick neck and web area. Also I would plan on turning your necks unless you have the reamer built for what I consider to be extremely thick necks. (Up to .017 on some).
The next thing is case capacity. My .20/225 in it's present state holds 36.2 grains of water. Catshooter thinks this is way over-bored. Most of my shooting buddies (a bunch of old farts who have been shooting since cordite and can still shoot 1 inch groups @ 300 yds with 6-power scopes IN THE WIND!) all think that if I stuff 35 grains of 4350 in this cartridge with the 55g Berger I want to run then it's likely to be a barrel burner. However I know there are some on this site that are running heavy .20s on a 22/250 case. YMMV. Something you might look at for case capacity is a cartridge Harvey developed to replace the .219 Wasp. It was called the .224 Donaldson Ace and was reported by him and a few others to be more accurate than the .219. Hard to believe but Harvey knew his stuff. Any way this cartridge was based on the .225 Winchester and was I believe tested in a bolt rifle. The capacity of the final round was 34.22g water. Don't know if this would still be over-bore as I have not run the numbers yet but my leanings are to find some sort of balance between the .219 and the .224 Donaldson cartridges.
To answer your question about forming the shoulder of the .225 to a 30 degree shoulder in a set of .219 Wasp forming dies--yes it can be done quite easily however as stated above I would anneal first and use all three dies to do it . Very thick, tough brass--lots of lube wax. I believe it's possible that this cartridge will withstand very high pressure without stretching primer pockets. Again YMMV. Hope this helps. .20- 55g Bergers seem to be very sporadic in availability so I'll probably wind up doing something on the 40g V-Max or maybe 50g Bergers if I can find them. How do you like your E A Brown rifle? Ive looked at their web a few times but have never seen one of their rifles. P.S. JDJ did a 6mm on the .225--don't know much about it other than it's proprietary.
A .19 on the .225 would definitely be unique to say the least. I would probably not do a cartridge on this bullet unless there was a good source for them besides Calhoun or I had what I considered a lifetime supply of them already in hand . Same with the brass. As stated by me earlier, I was fortunate to get quite a few at an estate sale for a very reasonable price. Another piece of advice I can give is that regardless the age of whatever .225 Winchester brass you aquire I highly recomend that you anneal it properly before changing shoulder/neck. .225 Winchester brass is very thick with an extremely thick neck and web area. Also I would plan on turning your necks unless you have the reamer built for what I consider to be extremely thick necks. (Up to .017 on some).
The next thing is case capacity. My .20/225 in it's present state holds 36.2 grains of water. Catshooter thinks this is way over-bored. Most of my shooting buddies (a bunch of old farts who have been shooting since cordite and can still shoot 1 inch groups @ 300 yds with 6-power scopes IN THE WIND!) all think that if I stuff 35 grains of 4350 in this cartridge with the 55g Berger I want to run then it's likely to be a barrel burner. However I know there are some on this site that are running heavy .20s on a 22/250 case. YMMV. Something you might look at for case capacity is a cartridge Harvey developed to replace the .219 Wasp. It was called the .224 Donaldson Ace and was reported by him and a few others to be more accurate than the .219. Hard to believe but Harvey knew his stuff. Any way this cartridge was based on the .225 Winchester and was I believe tested in a bolt rifle. The capacity of the final round was 34.22g water. Don't know if this would still be over-bore as I have not run the numbers yet but my leanings are to find some sort of balance between the .219 and the .224 Donaldson cartridges.
To answer your question about forming the shoulder of the .225 to a 30 degree shoulder in a set of .219 Wasp forming dies--yes it can be done quite easily however as stated above I would anneal first and use all three dies to do it . Very thick, tough brass--lots of lube wax. I believe it's possible that this cartridge will withstand very high pressure without stretching primer pockets. Again YMMV. Hope this helps. .20- 55g Bergers seem to be very sporadic in availability so I'll probably wind up doing something on the 40g V-Max or maybe 50g Bergers if I can find them. How do you like your E A Brown rifle? Ive looked at their web a few times but have never seen one of their rifles. P.S. JDJ did a 6mm on the .225--don't know much about it other than it's proprietary.
DD's, I'm pretty sure Berger discontinued the 50's but you'll love the 55's! I'm getting 3640 fps(chrono'ed) from my .20-.223AI. Hit a Chuck at 400 yards and got a nice air show which tells me they are expanding well out to there anyhow. I'm jamming them and getting sub 1/2 MOA at 200 yards anyway. No trouble keeping 5 of them in 3" at 640(Longest steel at range) yards. 
MM,
Thanks for the tip on the 50g. Looks like its back to the drawing board. I really want to develop a cartridge for a single shot that will reliably reach out to 500 yds. and I really think the .225 Winchester brass is thick (tough??) enough to withstand high pressure. I know the rifles I want to use are strong enough. Just can't seem to settle on a length. I saw in John Donnelly's book where some maniac like me built a .17 out of this case. Guess I'm not the only Single shot wacko out there. Thanks again for the tip-- by the way are Berger 55g available again? Haven't seen any locally and I don't do credit cards. Makes it really tough in this "Modern" world especially when I see guys able to snap up components as soon as they show up somewhere. Whaa whaa whaa! My wine detector just went off so I owe somebody 5 bucks
Thanks for the tip on the 50g. Looks like its back to the drawing board. I really want to develop a cartridge for a single shot that will reliably reach out to 500 yds. and I really think the .225 Winchester brass is thick (tough??) enough to withstand high pressure. I know the rifles I want to use are strong enough. Just can't seem to settle on a length. I saw in John Donnelly's book where some maniac like me built a .17 out of this case. Guess I'm not the only Single shot wacko out there. Thanks again for the tip-- by the way are Berger 55g available again? Haven't seen any locally and I don't do credit cards. Makes it really tough in this "Modern" world especially when I see guys able to snap up components as soon as they show up somewhere. Whaa whaa whaa! My wine detector just went off so I owe somebody 5 bucks
I like the .225 case also but unlike you have no cases. With the rim, and perhaps reducing the body taper by improving, it would be a great Encore round. The 55's were just available but this run was sucked up pretty quickly. I had them backordered from several when the run surfaced so I was able to get 600. I figure using 450 ft. lb.'s minimum terminal energy for Chucks 3640 fps MV would get me to over 700 yards.
DD thanks for the reply. I had not thought of the 224 Ace, so I got out my copy of "Yours Truly" Harvey Donaldson's book. It is a great book to read through and Harvey as you note was a very smart guy when it came to what made bullets really fly and fly accurately. i then remembered when I first read about the 224 I could not find really any much information about the details, but your comments got be thinking so I did some digging. I cannot find the copy of Dec. '71 Precision shooting mag which has the first article on the 224 Ace, but I did grab a copy of the Nov. '72 copy of Rifle Magazine that also has a full writeup. I will post that info when I get it.
Here are the case sizes of the .219DW, 224 Ace, and the .225 Winchester, along with 22-250 for some comparisons.
219DW
224 Ace
225 Win
22-250
So it appears that the 224 Ace is a shortened 225 case with a 30° shoulder, that becomes basically a semi-rimmed 219 Wasp!
Furthermore the 219 and 224 cases are very efficient. If you look up load data you can get basically 3,700 fps with a 55gr from a 224 Ace with half the powder that the same 55gr takes in a 22-250.
I did also have concern that the 225 would be over-bored, but a 224 Ace necked down to 19 or 20 cal should be good and still get .220 Swift velocity with less powder.
RCBS has resizing dies to take the 225 to 224 Ace, as well as reloading dies (for .224), however I am sure that custom dies can easily be made.
I am not worried about the supply of 225 brass, Midway sells it (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900227108/winchester-reloading-brass-225-winchester) as well as others. The .19 Cal bullets would be an issue, but if something happens to the source I could always rebarrel to .20 or .22.
As far as the EA Brown 97D rifle, well I got it during the winter and have not had a good day to try it out, but I do have some shells loaded ready to go. Brass is available from EA Brown or from a guy on Gun Broker which is all made from .30- 30.
Thanks again for the tip. I will do some more thinking and planning.
Here is some additional info on the 224 Ace: http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=3245#ixzz2wowm8YlM
Here are the case sizes of the .219DW, 224 Ace, and the .225 Winchester, along with 22-250 for some comparisons.
219DW
224 Ace
225 Win
22-250
So it appears that the 224 Ace is a shortened 225 case with a 30° shoulder, that becomes basically a semi-rimmed 219 Wasp!
Furthermore the 219 and 224 cases are very efficient. If you look up load data you can get basically 3,700 fps with a 55gr from a 224 Ace with half the powder that the same 55gr takes in a 22-250.
I did also have concern that the 225 would be over-bored, but a 224 Ace necked down to 19 or 20 cal should be good and still get .220 Swift velocity with less powder.
RCBS has resizing dies to take the 225 to 224 Ace, as well as reloading dies (for .224), however I am sure that custom dies can easily be made.
I am not worried about the supply of 225 brass, Midway sells it (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2900227108/winchester-reloading-brass-225-winchester) as well as others. The .19 Cal bullets would be an issue, but if something happens to the source I could always rebarrel to .20 or .22.
As far as the EA Brown 97D rifle, well I got it during the winter and have not had a good day to try it out, but I do have some shells loaded ready to go. Brass is available from EA Brown or from a guy on Gun Broker which is all made from .30- 30.
Thanks again for the tip. I will do some more thinking and planning.
Here is some additional info on the 224 Ace: http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=3245#ixzz2wowm8YlM
CatShooter
drwhite55 said:
There are no free lunches...
... if one case holds 1/2 the powder as another, then, at the same pressures, it will develop 1/2 the energy, which translates to 0.7 of the velocity.
There has NEVER been a cartridge that broke that law of physics.
This was also discussed in March on this forum.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3840494.0
It does not say the Ace holds half the powder of the 22-250, just that the powder is used more efficiently. However I do stand corrected the amount of powder is on the order of 70 to 75% of the powder of a 22-250, not 50%. No there is no way to break the laws of physics. I do not have pressure data yet but as soon as I do I will post it.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3840494.0
It does not say the Ace holds half the powder of the 22-250, just that the powder is used more efficiently. However I do stand corrected the amount of powder is on the order of 70 to 75% of the powder of a 22-250, not 50%. No there is no way to break the laws of physics. I do not have pressure data yet but as soon as I do I will post it.
drwhite55,
Thanks for the info on E.A. Brown. I'm not sure I want to shorten this case all the way down to Wasp length. seems like a waste of brass to me but if midway truly has .225 Winchester brass I may get one of my buddies to order some for me to experiment with. I think with the right powder and a long enough barrel I should be able to fall some where between Wasp capacity and .225 capacity without over-pressuring the gun. I've been playing around with the Powley computer but I'm not at all sure I'm feeding the right data into it. For all you guys that do this stuff all the time it's pretty easy. For me not so much--never did well in Math in school and been paying for it all my life. My thoughts are a case capacity of about 35g of water and a powder with a burn rate of 4350 or maybe a little slower if necessary. Catshooter thinks this cartridge would be more over-bore than a .220 Swift and I value his opinion. If it turns out that a cartridge with the capacity I have in mind is going to be a ridiculous barrel burner then I will have to try something else. Trying to figure this out on my own but any help you could give would be greatly appreciated. Same goes for Catshooter. Thanks After going back and re-reading all the posts on this thread I think I' ll probably take Catshooters advice on the 40g V-Max as I have a hunch they will perform just fine for me if I do my part although I wasn't expecting the velocity he quoted. Wasn't looking to go really fast just wanted enough poop to run a heavy .20 out to 500 yds. With accuracy. Maybe a little help with the wind. Don't want much do I.
Thanks for the info on E.A. Brown. I'm not sure I want to shorten this case all the way down to Wasp length. seems like a waste of brass to me but if midway truly has .225 Winchester brass I may get one of my buddies to order some for me to experiment with. I think with the right powder and a long enough barrel I should be able to fall some where between Wasp capacity and .225 capacity without over-pressuring the gun. I've been playing around with the Powley computer but I'm not at all sure I'm feeding the right data into it. For all you guys that do this stuff all the time it's pretty easy. For me not so much--never did well in Math in school and been paying for it all my life. My thoughts are a case capacity of about 35g of water and a powder with a burn rate of 4350 or maybe a little slower if necessary. Catshooter thinks this cartridge would be more over-bore than a .220 Swift and I value his opinion. If it turns out that a cartridge with the capacity I have in mind is going to be a ridiculous barrel burner then I will have to try something else. Trying to figure this out on my own but any help you could give would be greatly appreciated. Same goes for Catshooter. Thanks After going back and re-reading all the posts on this thread I think I' ll probably take Catshooters advice on the 40g V-Max as I have a hunch they will perform just fine for me if I do my part although I wasn't expecting the velocity he quoted. Wasn't looking to go really fast just wanted enough poop to run a heavy .20 out to 500 yds. With accuracy. Maybe a little help with the wind. Don't want much do I.
CatShooter
drwhite55 said:
I remember that thread - if you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Cartridges are simple thermodynamic machines - they convert solid energy to hot gas, and then into motion - if the pressures are the same, then the name or markings on the headstamp means nothing. The output is determined by the volume-metric ratios + pressure ceilings, and nothing else.
Kevin,
A .20 on the .225 case in a falling block would be a great varmint rifle and right down my alley. I shot a No.1 .225 for several years at PD's. I also was shooting a No.3 in .219 Wasp and when I decided to go to .20 cal I used the Wasp case. I had my .225 No.1 rebarreled with an 11" twist Krieger in 09 and my No.3 .219 Wasp became my second .204 Wasp a couple of years later. It has an 11" twist Pac-nor barrel. I'm shooting 39gr Blitzkings or 40 V-Maxs at 4000 to 4100 with Varget or N140. If I had it to do over, I would have done the second one with a 9" twist barrel. My .204 Wasp holds 32.0gr of Varget where your .20-.225 will hold about 35gr. My guess for your powder with 55gr Bergers is H4350. Here's some links to threads about my Rugers and my two wildcat cartridges.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3804266.0
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5563
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11458
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16340
Here's a pic of the .225WW No.1 that I shot for about 14 years and Rugers now.
Dave
A .20 on the .225 case in a falling block would be a great varmint rifle and right down my alley. I shot a No.1 .225 for several years at PD's. I also was shooting a No.3 in .219 Wasp and when I decided to go to .20 cal I used the Wasp case. I had my .225 No.1 rebarreled with an 11" twist Krieger in 09 and my No.3 .219 Wasp became my second .204 Wasp a couple of years later. It has an 11" twist Pac-nor barrel. I'm shooting 39gr Blitzkings or 40 V-Maxs at 4000 to 4100 with Varget or N140. If I had it to do over, I would have done the second one with a 9" twist barrel. My .204 Wasp holds 32.0gr of Varget where your .20-.225 will hold about 35gr. My guess for your powder with 55gr Bergers is H4350. Here's some links to threads about my Rugers and my two wildcat cartridges.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3804266.0
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5563
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11458
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16340
Here's a pic of the .225WW No.1 that I shot for about 14 years and Rugers now.
Dave
Dave.
Thanks very much for the info and advice on my .20/225 project. I was figuring on 4350 myself. Also really good info on barrel twist as I couldn't seem to decide what would be best since I'd like to shoot both 40g V-Max or 55g Bergers. Not sure if that's possible. I'm getting pretty excited about this project now that I know there are other folks who have gone down this same road so to speak.
I'm wondering what length barrel you settled on for the .204 Wasp. Also that's a pretty unique looking stock on the rifle on the far left of the link you posted. Any info?
Thanks very much for the info and advice on my .20/225 project. I was figuring on 4350 myself. Also really good info on barrel twist as I couldn't seem to decide what would be best since I'd like to shoot both 40g V-Max or 55g Bergers. Not sure if that's possible. I'm getting pretty excited about this project now that I know there are other folks who have gone down this same road so to speak.
I'm wondering what length barrel you settled on for the .204 Wasp. Also that's a pretty unique looking stock on the rifle on the far left of the link you posted. Any info?
Kevin,
I've read several posts from guys with 9 tw barrels that shoot lighter bullets well, especially the 40 V-Max. I remember reading a post about 4-5 years ago over on Saubier.com where a guy built a 20/225. I tried the search and looked through the project guns section, but can't find it. The barrel blanks are 28", the Krieger finished at 26" and the others at 27". It's hard to stay exicited when it takes 6-8 months to get a barrel and then another 6-9 months for the gunsmith, but its worth it when the plan comes together and you end up with exactly what you want. The last one that I did was the 8" twist .219DW PDK. I got the Shilen # 7HV barrel from The Barrelman in about three weeks and already had the reamer, but still took about 8 months at the gunsmith. I just tried the links in my previous post and found out that didn't go to the threads that I wanted. I'll try again.
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5563
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11458
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16340
I was looking for a No.3 in .22 Hornet when I came across this .223 No.3 at a gun show a couple of years ago. I couldn't pass it up for $575 since it already had a Kepplinger set trigger. Someone did a nice job of modifying the original stock with recoil pad, checkering and forend cap. Here's a couple more pics. It doesn't shoot great, about 1" at best, but haven't decided what to rebarrel it to. I've got two .22 K-Hornet takeoff barrels that could end up on it.
Dave
I've read several posts from guys with 9 tw barrels that shoot lighter bullets well, especially the 40 V-Max. I remember reading a post about 4-5 years ago over on Saubier.com where a guy built a 20/225. I tried the search and looked through the project guns section, but can't find it. The barrel blanks are 28", the Krieger finished at 26" and the others at 27". It's hard to stay exicited when it takes 6-8 months to get a barrel and then another 6-9 months for the gunsmith, but its worth it when the plan comes together and you end up with exactly what you want. The last one that I did was the 8" twist .219DW PDK. I got the Shilen # 7HV barrel from The Barrelman in about three weeks and already had the reamer, but still took about 8 months at the gunsmith. I just tried the links in my previous post and found out that didn't go to the threads that I wanted. I'll try again.
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5563
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11458
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16340
I was looking for a No.3 in .22 Hornet when I came across this .223 No.3 at a gun show a couple of years ago. I couldn't pass it up for $575 since it already had a Kepplinger set trigger. Someone did a nice job of modifying the original stock with recoil pad, checkering and forend cap. Here's a couple more pics. It doesn't shoot great, about 1" at best, but haven't decided what to rebarrel it to. I've got two .22 K-Hornet takeoff barrels that could end up on it.
Dave
Dave, That's a beautiful piece of wood and a great looking rifle. Thanks for the info on barrel length. I think i've got a .20 barrel lined up and my gunsmith likes me.(I think) Any way he's not doing much work for any one else at the moment and it sounds like Dave Kiff already has a reamer design. Have to check to make sure, but I'm getting pretty jacked about this project. Got a feeling this is going to work out well and if it does and enough of us pester Hornady and Sierra enough maybe we can get them to build some 50-55g bullets. I ain't holdin' my breath though ;D ;D
The thread I think you are looking for is this one:
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4962
The cartridge is a 20-225CG
Here are a couple of more threads that may be of interest:
http://www.smallcalibers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8529
http://www.boartuffoutdoors.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=thompsoncenter;action=display;num=1141421333
Unfortunately Rook Rifle seems to have disappeared in '09?
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4962
The cartridge is a 20-225CG
Here are a couple of more threads that may be of interest:
http://www.smallcalibers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8529
http://www.boartuffoutdoors.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=thompsoncenter;action=display;num=1141421333
Unfortunately Rook Rifle seems to have disappeared in '09?
drwhite55,
Thankyou for the info and links to other threads. 219Wasp also posted some really helpful info and links, hope you read them as I think they would be very helpful to your project also. The Wasp cartridges can be made from a variety of rimmed cases and to me that is part of their appeal. I currently have a .219 being put together by my smith and it's going to be great comparing this rifle to a .20/225. Looks like I may have to settle on one bullet or the other(40g or 55g) as there may be throating issues trying to shoot both. I won't know for sure until I actually build some dummie rounds using both bullets. I've been using bushig dies to shrink the necks but don't have the proper size for final necking. Waiting for proper bushhing in the mail. Also .22 caliber mandrel and expander for my turner. Once I aquire all this stuff I can finish making up the proper size cartrdges.
I think you are on the right track of utilizing a Wasp or Ace for your .19. Unless you want to go through all the gyrations of forming .225 brass I would probably go with the Wasp. Should be plenty of boiler for a .19. Make sure, if you go with the Wasp that you specify which one you want as there are two versions of the cartridge. One version had a longer neck to utilize a graphite wad on top of the powder charge. I would not think you would need this version although I am a fan of long necks myself. Once again thanks for the info.
Thankyou for the info and links to other threads. 219Wasp also posted some really helpful info and links, hope you read them as I think they would be very helpful to your project also. The Wasp cartridges can be made from a variety of rimmed cases and to me that is part of their appeal. I currently have a .219 being put together by my smith and it's going to be great comparing this rifle to a .20/225. Looks like I may have to settle on one bullet or the other(40g or 55g) as there may be throating issues trying to shoot both. I won't know for sure until I actually build some dummie rounds using both bullets. I've been using bushig dies to shrink the necks but don't have the proper size for final necking. Waiting for proper bushhing in the mail. Also .22 caliber mandrel and expander for my turner. Once I aquire all this stuff I can finish making up the proper size cartrdges.
I think you are on the right track of utilizing a Wasp or Ace for your .19. Unless you want to go through all the gyrations of forming .225 brass I would probably go with the Wasp. Should be plenty of boiler for a .19. Make sure, if you go with the Wasp that you specify which one you want as there are two versions of the cartridge. One version had a longer neck to utilize a graphite wad on top of the powder charge. I would not think you would need this version although I am a fan of long necks myself. Once again thanks for the info.
dedogs
I was a reader of 219Wasp's posts over on saubier some time ago before I bought my EA Brown 97D. His comments and exploits were some of the reasons that pushed me over the edge to go with a 219, that and reading Donaldson's book.
FYI all of the brass from EA Brown is the 1.813" length. This is per the Hornady drawings:
http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/reloading-manual-data/219%20Donaldson%20Wasp.pdf
There seems to be a lot of confusion as to why the neck was lengthened and the popular legend is that a mistake was made in taking the length before or after the rim. There also was apparently and early and late version of the original cartridge and the longer of these two is the 1.750, which is about 1/32 longer than HD's original design. Note that the "newer" version is .063" longer and this is the thickness of the rim! Anyway, the reload dies can be gotten in either length, but EA Brown only sells the longer version (1.813") of the brass and dies. The brass on Gunbroker can be ordered in either size. Since the 97D is setup for the longer version that is what all my brass is.
I have pretty much decided to go with the 225 converted to Ace to .19 Cal. I may still go to .20, but I have some time to think about that. I have planned to follow your route, get some brass to play with. I am ordering the RCBS forming die for the 225 Win to 224 Ace and then neck to .19 and see how that goes before I do anything else. One reason to stay with the 225 is that you can go either single shot or bolt action using that cartridge with the semi-rim. I also have a Ruger #1V 220 Swift I like a lot, so I may decide to go with a single shot for this project?? If you could share your source of bushings and custom tooling that would be great. This is my first adventure in wildcatting so I am taking it a bit slow to make sure I don't screw it up.
BTW Midway is out of 225 brass and it is in short supply due to preference to higher selling cartridges from what I have been told, but Winchester has not announced it as EOL, so it may well come back. There is quite a bit however used for sale around though.
FYI here are some targets that HD did shortly targets before he passed away using the ACE and 53gr bullet and 30 gr of IMR 4064
I was a reader of 219Wasp's posts over on saubier some time ago before I bought my EA Brown 97D. His comments and exploits were some of the reasons that pushed me over the edge to go with a 219, that and reading Donaldson's book.
FYI all of the brass from EA Brown is the 1.813" length. This is per the Hornady drawings:
http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/reloading-manual-data/219%20Donaldson%20Wasp.pdf
There seems to be a lot of confusion as to why the neck was lengthened and the popular legend is that a mistake was made in taking the length before or after the rim. There also was apparently and early and late version of the original cartridge and the longer of these two is the 1.750, which is about 1/32 longer than HD's original design. Note that the "newer" version is .063" longer and this is the thickness of the rim! Anyway, the reload dies can be gotten in either length, but EA Brown only sells the longer version (1.813") of the brass and dies. The brass on Gunbroker can be ordered in either size. Since the 97D is setup for the longer version that is what all my brass is.
I have pretty much decided to go with the 225 converted to Ace to .19 Cal. I may still go to .20, but I have some time to think about that. I have planned to follow your route, get some brass to play with. I am ordering the RCBS forming die for the 225 Win to 224 Ace and then neck to .19 and see how that goes before I do anything else. One reason to stay with the 225 is that you can go either single shot or bolt action using that cartridge with the semi-rim. I also have a Ruger #1V 220 Swift I like a lot, so I may decide to go with a single shot for this project?? If you could share your source of bushings and custom tooling that would be great. This is my first adventure in wildcatting so I am taking it a bit slow to make sure I don't screw it up.
BTW Midway is out of 225 brass and it is in short supply due to preference to higher selling cartridges from what I have been told, but Winchester has not announced it as EOL, so it may well come back. There is quite a bit however used for sale around though.
FYI here are some targets that HD did shortly targets before he passed away using the ACE and 53gr bullet and 30 gr of IMR 4064
drwhite55,
As you say, there seems to be a lot of confusion about why there are two different length Wasps. My information comes from a book by the late Charles Landis- "Twenty Two Caliber Varmint Rifles" re-published in 1991 by Wolfe publishing co. Fascinating reading for anyone interested in single shot varmint cartridges and the development of varmint hunting rifles. He also wrote a book titled "Woodchucks and Woodchuck Rifles", another great book.
Charles was a peer of Harvey Donaldson and all the other great experimenters of the '30's and 40's. Lovell, Kilbourn, Lindahl, Ackley, and Gebby to name a few. If you can find a copy of either I'm sure that you'll enjoy it and also notice how we varmint hunters have come full circle in the almost 80 years since this whole idea of varmint shooting became popular.
I am doing my case reforming the poor man's way--I use a set of .219 forming dies to set the shoulder of the .225 to 30*. Then I use a .22-250 neck bushing die(Redding) and various bushings to get to .20cal. Not sure if you can reach down to Wasp length using .22-250 die for the neck but I am not interested in pushing the shoulder back that far. By the way as I stated before in a previous post you should probably aneal first. + lots of lube. That .225 brass is exceptionally thick! I'm going to do an experiment with turning the necks after forming the shoulder and then necking down to .20. I feel that if I do this I won't stress the necks so much plus the added advantage of truing up the necks.
If you can't come up with any acceptable .225 brass (I don't like using used brass from an unkown source) I believe you can make .225 brass from .220 Swift which is also semi-rimmed and will function in either action.
I'm wondering what weight bullets you can get in .19 caliber and who is making the jackets? Thanks again for your in-put.
As you say, there seems to be a lot of confusion about why there are two different length Wasps. My information comes from a book by the late Charles Landis- "Twenty Two Caliber Varmint Rifles" re-published in 1991 by Wolfe publishing co. Fascinating reading for anyone interested in single shot varmint cartridges and the development of varmint hunting rifles. He also wrote a book titled "Woodchucks and Woodchuck Rifles", another great book.
Charles was a peer of Harvey Donaldson and all the other great experimenters of the '30's and 40's. Lovell, Kilbourn, Lindahl, Ackley, and Gebby to name a few. If you can find a copy of either I'm sure that you'll enjoy it and also notice how we varmint hunters have come full circle in the almost 80 years since this whole idea of varmint shooting became popular.
I am doing my case reforming the poor man's way--I use a set of .219 forming dies to set the shoulder of the .225 to 30*. Then I use a .22-250 neck bushing die(Redding) and various bushings to get to .20cal. Not sure if you can reach down to Wasp length using .22-250 die for the neck but I am not interested in pushing the shoulder back that far. By the way as I stated before in a previous post you should probably aneal first. + lots of lube. That .225 brass is exceptionally thick! I'm going to do an experiment with turning the necks after forming the shoulder and then necking down to .20. I feel that if I do this I won't stress the necks so much plus the added advantage of truing up the necks.
If you can't come up with any acceptable .225 brass (I don't like using used brass from an unkown source) I believe you can make .225 brass from .220 Swift which is also semi-rimmed and will function in either action.
I'm wondering what weight bullets you can get in .19 caliber and who is making the jackets? Thanks again for your in-put.
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