why start annealing?

[Brians356]

Not only will annealing prolong the life of the brass,

If your goal is to prolong case life in a bottleneck rifle case, you will be much better served dumping the regular sizing die and using a bushing die without the expander ball.

I will repeat what I wrote yesterday:

I took factory 6mm Rem ammo, sized the once-fired cases using Redding body die to move the shoulders back only 0.002", sized necks with a Redding Competition Neck Die, the bushing to reduce the neck OD 0.002" smaller than loaded round. Was that overworking the brass? I got split necks after 3 firings. (Yes, it was a factory chamber, and I was still having to bring the necks down 0.006" or so.)

Even using a bushing neck die, with minimal dimension changes applied, the brass gets work hardened and becomes brittle over time. And the brass may be relatively brittle to start with (maybe my factory 6mm Rem was?)

Either annealing, or minimizing working of the brass, should extend brass life. Both in conjunction - even more so.

I will concede that annealing alone might not mitigate against gross mishandling of the brass, but even a standard neck die with expander button wouldn't be gross mishandling, would it? I started out reloading 223 Rem with a standard RCBS neck die w/ expander, and never got a split neck (with no annealing) after several reloadings of Winchester brass (which seemed to be a bit harder than Remington back in the day.)

 

[mikecr]

I got split necks after 3 firings. (Yes, it was a factory chamber, and I was still having to bring the necks down 0.006" or so.)

You answered your own question there, and supported my contention that annealing didn't even address the actual problem,, much less fix it.
Just a band aid..

For those of us who don't blindside ourselves with problems, annealing should be considered either first in the chain, or dead last. Sounds like many here have pre-planned for continual annealing. If they have a really good plan then of course I respect that. I pre-plan to process anneal for initial fire-forming(lead dip). I measure seating forces, minimal clearances, minimal sizing, etc., and so far my planning has mitigated need for further annealing. So I know annealing isn't always required, isn't always beneficial, and I also respect those who notice this.

I'll remind also that nothing is free, and that anything we do can be managed to best balance, or flukked up completely.

 

[Brians356]

I got split necks after 3 firings. (Yes, it was a factory chamber, and I was still having to bring the necks down 0.006" or so.)

You answered your own question there, and supported my contention that annealing didn't even address the actual problem,, much less fix it.
Just a band aid..

Uh, hold on. I never annealed those 6mm Rem cases. So how could I have expected annealing to have addressed the problem?

Are you saying that even if I had annealed the necks, they would have split anyway? How about if I annealed after each firing, same answer? You're saying annealing really has no value at all.

Radical case reforming is quite practical (given the proper form dies and technique) with no mishaps if the brass is properly annealed back to softness at each stage along the way. After all, this is exactly how cases are manufactured, starting from an simple "coin". Resizing a neck a mere .006" is nothing compared to what the brass in that case has already been through.

 

[dkhunt14]

If you shoot longrange you will see clearly annealing has an advantage. Matt

 

[chevi_guy]

Amamnn
You mention Induction annealing. I just got a Fluexon "Annie" induction annealer and it only takes 1.8 seconds per .223 cartridge to anneal both neck and shoulder.
As you mention it is very easy to read the Templac.
I plan on annealing after every 4th or 5 th reloading. It make neck tension very consistent.

 

[wapiti25]

Annealing has made my brass last longer, started in the early 80's. First for forming wildcats. My mid-range ammo is more consistant by annealing.

 

[mikecr]

Uh, hold on. I never annealed those 6mm Rem cases. So how could I have expected annealing to have addressed the problem?

I guess you didn't directly say you annealed but you did proceed your example with this:

If someone's brass handling yields split necks after, say three firings, then they start annealing and they can get, say 20 firings or more (all else remaining the same) hasn't that "solved" their split neck problem?

Where you answered your question was with 6thou of sizing. That's the root cause of your neck splitting, and annealing is not affecting that cause, but only working around a result of it.
In other words, annealing or not, you're still overworking necks.

This is a great example to consider with annealing discussions. Over and over we can see that those declaring relief from annealing, are really just working around problems, that annealing seems to alleviate. If we investigated, we would find this every time.
But we could also find that where we don't have these problems, we don't need to frequently anneal. And where we plan up front, we mitigate the problems to begin.

 

[Brians356]

Uh, hold on. I never annealed those 6mm Rem cases. So how could I have expected annealing to have addressed the problem?

I guess you didn't directly say you annealed but you did proceed your example with this:

If someone's brass handling yields split necks after, say three firings, then they start annealing and they can get, say 20 firings or more (all else remaining the same) hasn't that "solved" their split neck problem?

I can understand your confusion, that was a hypothetical, not related directly to what followed.

So let me ask you then: If someone has a standard sporter chamber which, even with a bushing die and no expander, still requires reducing the neck, say, 0.006" or more, what is your prescription to prevents split necks? Re-chamber to a tight-neck configuration, to avoid "overworking the brass"? Annealing in that case, even if it prevents split necks, is just a "band-aid"? Must be nice to live in your world. 8)

 

[noload]

I have done some deliberate testing annealed VS not annealed, I did the testing at long range 600 to 1000. I have not definitely concluded that annealed case shoot better than non annealed cases. The caliber was 284 Shehane turned necks., .314 nk chamber. I think if the original turn job on the necks was consistent through out the lot, annealing my not be needed so often to keep seating tension consistent. But If you get a bunch of practice cases from different lots annealing may prove to smooth out the seating tension and give better results. I do not like the extra steps involved in annealing and would like nothing better than to anneal every 3rd fire. But if I can gain a half inch at 1000yd by annealing, I will. As far as making the case last longer, thats not why I anneal , the base and primer pocket go to hell way before I would split any necks. Another test at 1000yd this monday.

 

[mikecr]

If someone has a standard sporter chamber which, even with a bushing die and no expander, still requires reducing the neck, say, 0.006" or more, what is your prescription to prevents split necks? Re-chamber to a tight-neck configuration, to avoid "overworking the brass"? Annealing in that case, even if it prevents split necks, is just a "band-aid"?

There is no "if someone has". It's 'if someone chose'.
6thou+ of neck sizing is ridiculous. Do you actually need to size that much?
If so, stop annealing and re-barrel so that you aren't.
That's how you solve a problem.

We're not talking about anything like what I consider tight neck..

 

[CatShooter]

If someone has a standard sporter chamber which, even with a bushing die and no expander, still requires reducing the neck, say, 0.006" or more, what is your prescription to prevents split necks? Re-chamber to a tight-neck configuration, to avoid "overworking the brass"? Annealing in that case, even if it prevents split necks, is just a "band-aid"?

There is no "if someone has". It's 'if someone chose'.
6 thou+ of neck sizing is ridiculous. Do you actually need to size that much?
If so, stop annealing and re-barrel so that you aren't.
That's how you solve a problem.

We're not talking about anything like what I consider tight neck..

Some times it is NOT what someone "chose", it just "is"... often in a factory rifle, even a semi custom rifle.

Annealing will allow the cases to last 30, 40+ reloads if done properly, plus it contributes greatly to accuracy.

A few years ago, I threw out a bunch (300+) pieces of Winchester 22-250 brass that had been reloaded ~45 times each, and had lived through 5 different barrels. Lapua hed just released their 22-250 and I wanted to start over with it, on a new chamber/rifle.

Necks were Plain Jane SAAMI in every one of them.

The advantages to annealing are:

1 - Very long case life.

2 - Elimination of split necks.

3 - More consistant seating - bullet release.

4 - Elimination of a lot of those "unexplained fliers".

5 - Improved accuracy.