Why Should I Anneal?

[JimSC]

Annealing with the AMP is so fast and easy I see no point in NOT doing it, just in case that consistent neck tension might make a difference during a match where the conditions are excellent.

perhaps for some of us that 1500 dollars could go toward a new barrel, gun etc and lots of powder and bullets. If my vertical spreads are good that tells me my ammo is fine, I might be a novice but that is just common sense

would a 1500 dollar annealing machine helped this target ? Probably not but some wind reading skill on my part sure would have

 

[INTJ]

perhaps for some of us that 1500 dollars could go toward a new barrel, gun etc and lots of powder and bullets. If my vertical spreads are good that tells me my ammo is fine, I might be a novice but that is just common sense

would a 1500 dollar annealing machine helped this target ? Probably not but some wind reading skill on my part sure would have

My machine was under $1100. Like I said, better consistently in neck tension is unlikely to help in F-Class. But without question best performance is achieved by doing everything we can to be more accurate. Deciding we don’t need to do something that may well help without trying it first is not the path to top performance.

But to your point, annealing didn’t help me with this agg.....

 

[JimSC]

View attachment 1080468

My machine was under $1100. Like I said, better consistently in neck tension is unlikely to help in F-Class. But without question best performance is achieved by doing everything we can to be more accurate. Deciding we don’t need to do something that may well help without trying it first is not the path to top performance.

But to your point, annealing didn’t help me with this agg.....

right now at Brownells a Amp is $1399, add in a few shellholders etc and shipping and call it 1500 or thereabouts. That will buy 10,000 rounds of my CZ's favorite 22LR ammo, or 56 pounds of powder, or 3500 bullets etc etc. All of which I can use to practice and get that darned horizontal spread down. Being retired and on a fixed income I have to use some discretion on what gives me the most bang for my buck, no pun intended and my wind and mirage skills suck to put it bluntly. Bragging about my new annealing machine might impress some at the club, but reading the wind correctly and shooting a clean target and winning a few club matches would be more impressive

BTW nice target, when I grow up I really want to try some LR benchrest but for right now mid and long range (only 800 yards) F class is my only choice until I get the confidence to do some overnight trips to shoot

 

[INTJ]

The only annealer that folks seem impressed with are Gina1s induction annealer ($200 ish) that she engineered. I guess several here have built their own. That is what I would if I hadn’t already had the AMP before returning to competition shooting.

But then you have to ask is it worth is it worth spending the time to build one or is time better spent practicing?

I am still hopeful that my improved loading and shooting techniques will result in better match performance.....

 

[270WinDude]

What do you mean by that? Trying to understand the statement.

I haven’t been on in a while and looks like it was answered for me but I’ll explain my personal experience. When I first started reloading I’d get to about 4 reload before I’d have issues seating bullets. I’d go to seat one and it would go down with no force then the next would take almost as much force as normal. I wouldn’t have had a problem with it but with loads at max clapacity I noticed that it would effect the seating depth. I researched my problem on this site and found that others had the problem fixed by annealing. So then I posted asking cheap methods and tried a batch with the same brass. It seemed to have fixed my seating pressure variation back to like the brass was when new. I neck size only for my gun. Also as mentioned from my understanding some chambers are different and also what cartridge you’re using is a large variable.

 

[JimSC]

Nick,
Hbelow is a paper that Damon Cali wrote on annealing. The answer may be there.

Joe

elasticity and ductility are not the same thing, annealing affects ductility but has zero effect on elasticity

https://www.thestructuralmadness.com/2014/02/ductility-and-elasticity.html

Elasticity defines about how much the material is elastic, that is to which extent the deformations are proportional to the forces applied on the material. While ductility defines the capability of the material to get itself stretched beyond the elastic zone

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

elasticity and ductility are not the same thing, annealing affects ductility but has zero effect on elasticity

https://www.thestructuralmadness.com/2014/02/ductility-and-elasticity.html

Well that's a clear and concise explanation. Thanks

 

[JimSC]

it's pretty easy to demonstrate, take a fired case and measure the neck inside diameter or outside diameter and write it down, size the case either neck sizer or FL sizer, measure the neck write it down, seat a bullet again measure the neck OD and write it down, pull the bullet and once again measure the neck. The first measurement is where the brass is stretched beyond the point of yielding and cannot return to the original size. The elasticity is still the same just the brass's dimensions have changed. That is why we size brass. How far you can stretch it before the brass splits will depend on the ductility and that is where annealing comes into play, hopefully you will never seat a bullet that fat or in brass that brittle.

The pulled bullet measurement should be the same as it was before which demonstrates the elasticity. Because case necks are tapered you have to be careful to measure the same spot. My .260 Rem cases have a OD of .295 at the junction of shoulder and neck but only .291 at the mouth when sized. You should be able to seat the bullet and pull it a hundred times and it should always return to the sized measurement, but when you fire the round the brass is will be stretched to deformation

hope this helps a bit in bringing it down to the real world

 

[memilanuk]

ok explain that one to me, when I seat I run the ram all the way up or with a inline I make sure the top seating section of the die meets the case holder. The seating will always be as accurate as the ogive on the bullet, no more and mo less. Neck tension does not have a damn thing to do with seating depth only the consistency of the bullet ogive and whatever adjustments you make with the die.

Negative, ghostrider.

I've long seen the exact same thing as @CharlieNC on this one. If I set my seating die with a case that has say, median neck tension, and then suddenly have a case with very light neck tension, that one will be seated deeper - pretty much every time. Same thing, if I have one that has much higher neck tension, it'll take me a couple tries (at least) to get that thing pressed down to the same seating depth as the rest.

This is both with a regular Wilson seater, and a custom-fit 21st Century seater, in a K&M arbor press with a hyraulic seater base. It's *slightly* less noticeable with a regular sleeved seater (Redding Comp, Forster Ultra BR) in a 7/8-14 tpi threaded press.

 

[JimSC]

Negative, ghostrider.

I've long seen the exact same thing as @CharlieNC on this one. If I set my seating die with a case that has say, median neck tension, and then suddenly have a case with very light neck tension, that one will be seated deeper - pretty much every time. Same thing, if I have one that has much higher neck tension, it'll take me a couple tries (at least) to get that thing pressed down to the same seating depth as the rest.

This is both with a regular Wilson seater, and a custom-fit 21st Century seater, in a K&M arbor press with a hyraulic seater base. It's *slightly* less noticeable with a regular sleeved seater (Redding Comp, Forster Ultra BR) in a 7/8-14 tpi threaded press.

then your cases are defying the laws of physics. Young's modulus, and Poissons ratio determine the elasticity of a material. Full Hard brass, Spring Brass, Annealed Brass and every kind of brass you can imagine has a elasticity modulus of 110 and a Poissons ratio of .31. https://www.makeitfrom.com/material-properties/UNS-C26800-CW506L-Yellow-Brass check for yourself. Now there could be some other factor but annealing only affects the brass at the molecular level and elasticity is at the atomic level

try can seating, pulling and measure the same case 50 times and each and every time it will return to the same size with no changes as long as you are not pushing the stretch past the yield point but once sized it will again it will spring back until it is pulled past the yield point again. Annealing affects a lot of a metals properties but elasticity is not one of them.

Just a thought but your annealing could be supplying some sort of lubrication factor, soot or something which is why you feel some sort of reduction of friction

 

[CharlieNC]

then your cases are defying the laws of physics. Young's modulus, and Poissons ratio determine the elasticity of a material. Full Hard brass, Spring Brass, Annealed Brass and every kind of brass you can imagine has a elasticity modulus of 110 and a Poissons ratio of .31. https://www.makeitfrom.com/material-properties/UNS-C26800-CW506L-Yellow-Brass check for yourself. Now there could be some other factor but annealing only affects the brass at the molecular level and elasticity is at the atomic level

try can seating, pulling and measure the same case 50 times and each and every time it will return to the same size with no changes as long as you are not pushing the stretch past the yield point but once sized it will again it will spring back until it is pulled past the yield point again. Annealing affects a lot of a metals properties but elasticity is not one of them.

Just a thought but your annealing could be supplying some sort of lubrication factor, soot or something which is why you feel some sort of reduction of friction

Reality is reality. Physics is real, but there are multiple choice answers which may or may not apply; the reality helps one understand which. I just say a write up by damoncalli showing the stress/strain curves, and they are different based upon the annealed vs work hardened state.

 

[memilanuk]

Just a thought but your annealing could be supplying some sort of lubrication factor, soot or something which is why you feel some sort of reduction of friction

Just to be clear: I'm not saying this is something specific to annealing. This happens as a function of the neck tension. I was just refuting your claim that the seating depth would be the same no matter the neck tension.

 

[JimSC]

Just to be clear: I'm not saying this is something specific to annealing. This happens as a function of the neck tension. I was just refuting your claim that the seating depth would be the same no matter the neck tension.

How far out were you seating that bullet, for that to happen a force would have to be applied parallel to the case body and perpendicular to the neck compression. Perhaps a compressed load with light neck tension would do that or in the very unlikely event you were seating the bullet so far out that all of the bearing surface was past the case mouth and you were seating on the boattail. Once again that's just physics, not hearsay or perception. As always though shooting is a mental sport, if someone wants to believe that having their spouse kiss their rifle before a match helps then it most certainly will help mentally.

Take your fingers or a pair of pliers and squeeze a bullet as hard or soft as you want on the bearing surface and it will not move forward or backwards unless you are squeezing on the slope of the ogive or the boattail. Try it

 

[memilanuk]

There's plenty of bearing surface in the neck, and the charge isn't compressed. This isn't a one-time thing; I've observed it any number of times across multiple calibers. It isn't a "if you think it" sort of thing... unless you believe my Mitutuoyo calipers have a mind of their own.

 

[JimSC]

There's plenty of bearing surface in the neck, and the charge isn't compressed. This isn't a one-time thing; I've observed it any number of times across multiple calibers. It isn't a "if you think it" sort of thing... unless you believe my Mitutuoyo calipers have a mind of their own.

to have a bullet move forward a pressure would have to be applied to the base, just as when it is fired. For a case to be moved forward from pressure applied perpendicular (squeezed) would require at the minimum a slope and low enough friction for that force to act , that is just every day common sense. Its the same as applying a ring clamp. If the piece being clamped and the clamp moves with pressure applied there is a slope. You can't put a ring clamp on a cone, but you can a cylinder.

I am not doubting that something moved the bullets, just that the something was not neck tension under normal circumstances. Normal circumstances meaning no pressure applied on a slope or some other force acting parallel to the bullet.

 

[dcali]

Negative, ghostrider.

I've long seen the exact same thing as @CharlieNC on this one. If I set my seating die with a case that has say, median neck tension, and then suddenly have a case with very light neck tension, that one will be seated deeper - pretty much every time. Same thing, if I have one that has much higher neck tension, it'll take me a couple tries (at least) to get that thing pressed down to the same seating depth as the rest.

This is both with a regular Wilson seater, and a custom-fit 21st Century seater, in a K&M arbor press with a hyraulic seater base. It's *slightly* less noticeable with a regular sleeved seater (Redding Comp, Forster Ultra BR) in a 7/8-14 tpi threaded press.

I haven’t noticed this, but then again, I haven’t really paid that close attention. How big a difference are we talking? I wonder if it’s worse with hard brass and tight neck tension. Could be the spring back acting against the boattail once the seating force is removed. I’ll have to pay more attention to this. You’ve got me thinking.

 

[memilanuk]

Up to +/- 5 thou... though the 'tighter' necks tend to be further off than the ones with light neck tension.

It's not an every day occurrence... but if I have a batch of necks that are seating bullets @ say 30 lbs force, and I suddenly have a bullet seat with only 10 lbs force, or with 60... the seating depth isn't going to be where you'd normally expect.

Typically nowadays between annealing, using expander mandrels and whatnot, I don't run into that much variation anymore. If I size my necks to be .305, a .305- pin gauge just slips in and a .3055 acts as a NO-GO.

I made the mistake last week of trying to use some brass of questionable provenance... long story, but the relevant bit is this: the neck tension was all *over* the place, even after I went far, far beyond my normal level of work to make everything the same. And the seating depth was correspondingly a crap shoot.

 

[JimSC]

Interesting. Exactly how are you measuring neck tension? I measure mine by taking the OD of the neck of a sized case before and after seating a bullet and then subtracting. For example. 292(seated) - .289(sized) = .003 neck tension. That was how I was taught and it makes sense to me. As long as my sizing die works and it seems to I get consistent springback no matter what I do to the cases. I did a little test before dinner

I took an old Starline case with about 4 firings on it that had been annealed after every firing on a Annealeze that was adjusted with Templaq 750 and equipped with a digital speed controller. After 4 firings I had a couple of loose primers so I put them away fro an emergency. I FL sized my case and had a neck diameter of .289, no surprise since I have a .289 bushing in the die. Seated a 140 gn Nosler with no neck lube wet or dry. I measured the OD at .292. I then pulled the bullet and measured the neck at .291. It looks like I had .002 of plastic deformation so I reseated then pulled the bullet with no sizing in between, with only .001 expansion seating was much lighter of course but each time I pulled and measured the case always sprang back to .291. Then I repeated the test this time doing a resize between each seating and with a neck diameter of .289 before seating and a reading of .291 three times and .290 twice after pulling the bullet.

Lastly I then took a fresh Starline case and annealed it after each sizing, seated the bullet and measured the neck got the same the same results as far as measurements. I saw zero difference between neck tension between annealed and non annealed after 5 resizings. Spring back was identical. The bullet did seem to be a bit easier or smoothly seating at the end to seat but I attribute that to the bullet and the case polishing each other a bit if anything and it was a progressive improvement from first to last seating. Seating was done with a Wilson seating die on a bald Eagle arbor press.

But if you think it helps then I can promise it helps, mental confidence plays a large role. When I first stopped annealing I just knew my numbers were going to toilet, after about 3 months I am starting to relax

 

[Murray Brook]

Up to +/- 5 thou... though the 'tighter' necks tend to be further off than the ones with light neck tension.

It's not an every day occurrence... but if I have a batch of necks that are seating bullets @ say 30 lbs force, and I suddenly have a bullet seat with only 10 lbs force, or with 60... the seating depth isn't going to be where you'd normally expect.

Typically nowadays between annealing, using expander mandrels and whatnot, I don't run into that much variation anymore. If I size my necks to be .305, a .305- pin gauge just slips in and a .3055 acts as a NO-GO.

I made the mistake last week of trying to use some brass of questionable provenance... long story, but the relevant bit is this: the neck tension was all *over* the place, even after I went far, far beyond my normal level of work to make everything the same. And the seating depth was correspondingly a crap shoot.

I've experienced the exact same thing, and in multiple cartridges. Every time I have a hard seat vs a soft one the soft one is most always a shorter OAL than the hard seated one. I don't know what the physics are, just the results. One of the reasons i've been trying salt bath annelling.

 

[CharlieNC]

I think a key point is there is no claim that annealing always helps. But there are issues which may arise, e.g. variable seating force which leads to variable seating depth, that annealing corrects. On those loads annealing is a wise preventive maintenance action. For me this is the case for my highest pressure loads. Coincidentally these also seem to exhibit the fastest growth in length, which might infer thinning of the necks is involved. Much more to check and learn.