Why Should I Anneal?

[Fotheringill]

41 loadings seems like perhaps a bit of a stretch.

Not really. I was using what turned out to be accurate yet light loads in my .223. I had 40 or so loads in several batches of Laupua, RWS and Norma brass each

 

[rjtfroggy]

I was going to but then I asked a few of the guys that I shoot BR with ( I'm relatively new) and they all said just buy new brass every year and prep enough for the season.
Right now I have 200 pieces of 30 BR waiting for the gun to be ready and 200 30x47 ready to go.

 

[BenPerfected]

My suggestion is to test shooting (3) 5 shot groups at 200+ yds with the frequency of annealing being the only variable. Shoot on a calm day and see what shows up on paper. Shoot all rounds with your normal load, then anneal at 5x, 10x & 15x fired and see if it makes any difference.
Ben

 

[270WinDude]

I guess at this point it’s how the accuracy is for you. I know my hornady brass will not hold neck tension in a 270win with any load past 4 firings give or take. If your accuracy is good, you’re not competing, and not encountering any problems that annealing is reported to fix then by all means, imho, spend your time and money on other things. I know you’ve decided, I’m just fashionably late here.

I fully realize that 41 reloads is a stretch. If someone had told me they did this I would be hard pressed to believe it myself.
...
I want to thank everyone for their input. From the answers I got today, I think I will just keep on doing what I have been. I was going to spends a ton of money on an annealer. Now I can spend that money on something else.

 

[jimmymac]

I know my hornady brass will not hold neck tension in a 270win with any load past 4 firings give or take.

What do you mean by that? Trying to understand the statement.

 

[mikecr]

With hardening, the sized neck springs back (outward) more, causing a larger neck ID(lower interference) for bullet seating. When the ID reaches near bullet diameter then seating forces drop from what is expected. This can reach a point of little to no actual bullet grip.
Process annealing (not full annealing) would restore planned bullet grip here.

It's as important to understand that neck tension potential, while hardened, is actually higher. It's just that the neck would have to be downsized more under this condition so that it springs back to the proper neck interference (~1thou under cal).

The bottom line is that with enough sizing to harden them, neck tension is changing.
Reduce the amplitude of your sizing cycles and you'll reduce the tension change rate. In fact, with neck clearance so low as to eliminate any need for sizing (fitted necks), necks do not continue to harden beyond that set with initial fire forming.
If you're sizing necks a lot (>5thou), you should include frequent annealing in your reloading plan. In this case, get the best annealing system you can. Something accurate and easy.

 

[dcali]

Unless the brass splits, you can mitigate the problem of not fully sizing (because of increased spring back) by using a smaller bushing. I rarely have to, but it’s no big deal to drop down .001”.

 

[6MT]

I have both AMP machines (Mark I & II). I knew early on in my reloading career that working hardness affects brass life. Neck tension consistency is also very important and I noticed this as well early in my career. Without annealing, after multiple firings (+5), I noticed neck tensions all over the place. Annealing gives absolutely consistent neck tension. Consistency being the key.

An example of brass life I noticed after I began annealing is that for my magnum cases (.338LM), my brass cycles have increased from around 10 or 11 cycles, to well over 15. I even have some cases that have reached 20 firings. This is true for all calibres that I load for (6). The Lapua case is so good, add to that annealing, and you start seeing significant cost savings. Just another bonus to annealing.

For those who believe annealing is an unnecessary step, just look to my examples above. You're either in this for top quality results, or you're not. The inherent cost savings over time are a nice bonus. As far as increasing accuracy goes, yes I believe it helps. Neck tension consistency being the main reason.

 

[dcali]

For those who believe annealing is an unnecessary step, just look to my examples above. You're either in this for top quality results, or you're not.

I completely disagree with this. I have won matches in FTR, and beat most of the Open field with ammunition that many shooters have told me “isn’t good enough” because I don’t anneal, don’t weigh primers, don’t sort bullets, don’t check runout, don’t use a lab grade scale, don’t sort cases, don’t point bullets, don’t reseat the night before a match, don’t turn necks to a tenth, don’t use a hydro press, don’t use the highest BC bullets, etc. You simply do not need to do all this stuff.

I only bring this up because I see new shooters buying a lot of gear they don’t need and complicate their learning process because they falsely believe that they need this stuff to be competitive. In my opinion, shooters are far better off using the money on bullets, books, and barrels.

 

[fatelvis]

I always wondered if annealing was necessary too, until I started annealing, and saw that the spring back after sizing was much less, and more consistent. I like consistency!

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I completely disagree with this. I have won matches in FTR, and beat most of the Open field with ammunition that many shooters have told me “isn’t good enough” because I don’t anneal, don’t weigh primers, don’t sort bullets, don’t check runout, don’t use a lab grade scale, don’t sort cases, don’t point bullets, don’t reseat the night before a match, don’t turn necks to a tenth, don’t use a hydro press, don’t use the highest BC bullets, etc. You simply do not need to do all this stuff.

I only bring this up because I see new shooters buying a lot of gear they don’t need and complicate their learning process because they falsely believe that they need this stuff to be competitive. In my opinion, shooters are far better off using the money on bullets, books, and barrels.

And this is the fact’s of life guys. Some guys like Damon know how to shoot and win, and there’s those that are trying to buy their way there that are lacking the talent.

 

[CharlieNC]

And this is the fact’s of life guys. Some guys like Damon know how to shoot and win, and there’s those that are trying to buy their way there that are lacking the talent.

In my case, annealing was to correct an identified problem. Variable bullet seating force which also led to variable seating depth were corrected. Would I have implemented annealing otherwise, maybe not? But blanket statements saying ALWAYS or NEVER are seldom accurate. Good judgement and logic prevail.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

In my case, annealing was to correct an identified problem. Variable bullet seating force which also led to variable seating depth were corrected. Would I have implemented annealing otherwise, maybe not? But blanket statements saying ALWAYS or NEVER are seldom accurate. Good judgement and logic prevail.

Yes you are correct, and I was not directing what was said against annealing at all. I was just stating that through my life at the job site and sport’s you see guys with natural raw talent that can get it done.

 

[dcali]

And this is the fact’s of life guys. Some guys like Damon know how to shoot and win, and there’s those that are trying to buy their way there that are lacking the talent.

I’m not a national level shooter. I do ok at the local and state level. My rifle, on the other hand, is as good as they get. That part is primarily a function of knowledge, and it’s 90% of precision rifle sports (f class and benchrest). Knowing what to do and what to focus on will get you into the top 10%. You see it constantly in F Class. A shooter struggles one season, and then buckles down and learns what works, gets a new rifle, and is instantly competitive. The guys that win do two things: they *know* how everything works, and they shoot a lot. It’s that simple. If you’re copying, you’re probably losing. You can literally read your way to being competitive in f class. I know a lot of people don’t want to admit that, but it’s true.

 

[6MT]

And this is the fact’s of life guys. Some guys like Damon know how to shoot and win, and there’s those that are trying to buy their way there that are lacking the talent.

Well, as someone already mentioned, consistency is what I seek. Neck tension consistency. Helps with accuracy...yes. I noticed this consistency after I started annealing. Also, increased life of my brass.

To each their own. I only posted above to talk about my situation. If people don't agree, so be it. I guess there's no concrete correct thing to do in this life. And as far as "talent" goes, I'm a decent enough shooter. Yes, I beleive I have "talent". But annealing also helps with the non intrinsic area of the hobby.

And as someone said above, the words NEVER and ALWAYS shouldn't apply. They are subjective to your own situation. (And possibly not to mine.)

 

[JimSC]

Variable bullet seating force which also led to variable seating depth were corrected.

ok explain that one to me, when I seat I run the ram all the way up or with a inline I make sure the top seating section of the die meets the case holder. The seating will always be as accurate as the ogive on the bullet, no more and mo less. Neck tension does not have a damn thing to do with seating depth only the consistency of the bullet ogive and whatever adjustments you make with the die

Quck edit - neck tension would come into play on bullet depth if you seat into the lands. Less neck tension would mean less of the bullet shoved into the lands, more neck tension more of the bullet. But again that leads back to the elasticity is not ductility argument

Also Litz in his shooting bench test noted that annealed while SD was relatively unchanged the brass tended to grow more than non annealed. He seemed surprised by this but it makes sense. While annealing does nothing for the elasticity it does affect grain orientation and my theory is the softer brass flows more easily. That means more frequent trimming and that brass in the neck comes from somewhere. When neck thickness and length increases that means some part of the brass is getting thinner. Just something to think about.

I see plenty of annealing does this and does that, but it all seems to be hearsay, subjective feelings, and internet forum wisdom with no verification or testing of any sort

 

[CharlieNC]

ok explain that one to me, when I seat I run the ram all the way up or with a inline I make sure the top seating section of the die meets the case holder. The seating will always be as accurate as the ogive on the bullet, no more and mo less. Neck tension does not have a damn thing to do with seating depth only the consistency of the bullet ogive and whatever adjustments you make with the die

Quck edit - neck tension would come into play on bullet depth if you seat into the lands. Less neck tension would mean less of the bullet shoved into the lands, more neck tension more of the bullet. But again that leads back to the elasticity is not ductility argument

Also Litz in his shooting bench test noted that annealed while SD was relatively unchanged the brass tended to grow more than non annealed. He seemed surprised by this but it makes sense. While annealing does nothing for the elasticity it does affect grain orientation and my theory is the softer brass flows more easily. That means more frequent trimming and that brass in the neck comes from somewhere. When neck thickness and length increases that means some part of the brass is getting thinner. Just something to think about.

I see plenty of annealing does this and does that, but it all seems to be hearsay, subjective feelings, and internet forum wisdom with no verification or testing of any sort

Jim I cannot explain the why. All I know is that when I ran into extremely variable seating force, I measured the cbto on the offenders and those which were normal to determine the seating depth was likewise affected. This has also been reported by others during annealing discussions. If you believe neck tension and seating depth affect accuracy, then annealing may improve these results if you note an increase in variability as the brass is fired more. I am not suggesting this is a universal problem, but given these symptoms annealing may offer the correction. I am not one to have a fix which is in search of a problem, as I like to keep my reloading regiment as simple as possible.

 

[JimSC]

Jim I cannot explain the why. All I know is that when I ran into extremely variable seating force, I measured the cbto on the offenders and those which were normal to determine the seating depth was likewise affected. This has also been reported by others during annealing discussions. If you believe neck tension and seating depth affect accuracy, then annealing may improve these results if you note an increase in variability as the brass is fired more. I am not suggesting this is a universal problem, but given these symptoms annealing may offer the correction. I am not one to have a fix which is in search of a problem, as I like to keep my reloading regiment as simple as possible.

What I was wondering was if maybe somehow the bullets crept out becasue of a doughnut. I am just at the point where I am experimenting with an arbor press rigged with a electronic scale and saw for the first time today what a doughnut will do to seating force. I am refining the press setup and adding a bell and a whistle and will start some hobby level testing next month. Next year I plan to devote one range trip each week for experimenting at a hobby level with neck tension and how it affects velocity and flyers at 300 and out and other theories. Looking at the the numbers on annealed vs non annealed, lubes etc. Any info or opinions I find on here is considered and is part of my learning. I appreciate yours and everyone's opinion

 

[INTJ]

I completely disagree with this. I have won matches in FTR, and beat most of the Open field with ammunition that many shooters have told me “isn’t good enough” because I don’t anneal, don’t weigh primers, don’t sort bullets, don’t check runout, don’t use a lab grade scale, don’t sort cases, don’t point bullets, don’t reseat the night before a match, don’t turn necks to a tenth, don’t use a hydro press, don’t use the highest BC bullets, etc. You simply do not need to do all this stuff.

I only bring this up because I see new shooters buying a lot of gear they don’t need and complicate their learning process because they falsely believe that they need this stuff to be competitive. In my opinion, shooters are far better off using the money on bullets, books, and barrels.

Winning matches, especially F-Class, is not a good performance indicator as to the usefulness of annealing. Even winning long range BR matches isn’t really a good measure.

Annealing has value for improving brass life and improving consistency in seating tension. Improving brass life has little bearing on match performance. Consistent seating tension will indeed make a difference in group consistency at a match but it would take good conditions to see that. Not sure consistent neck tension would make much difference in score, even in 1000yd BR with its 3” x ring.

A dozen year ago I shot several sub 4” 1000 yd groups, shot a couple 50-3xs, and set two club agg records of 4.91 and 4.71. I didn’t anneal, used a cheap scale to weigh charges, seated with a 7/8-14 die, had horrible tracking, and didn’t pay much attention to wind flags.

In my comeback this year I have not shot that well. A pair of 4.125” groups at the Nationals. However, my loading, wind reading, and tracking are much more precise and consistent.

I learned I had inconsistent seating tension this year when I bought a Hydro seater. Annealing took a 50% inconsistency rate to under 10%. I am now able to get 90% plus of my loads seated with 25-35 PSI. In the old
days I just ran much neck tension and jammed the bullets hard into the lands.

My point is I don’t know if ANY of the advanced loading and shooting stuff I now do makes a difference in match performance. I will never know because the only way to truly tell is by doing an A to B test in exactly the same excellent shooting conditions.

However, I do know that the only way to do well in competitions is by taking every possible accuracy enhancing step I can. Annealing with the AMP is so fast and easy I see no point in NOT doing it, just in case that consistent neck tension might make a difference during a match where the conditions are excellent.

 

[David101]

I have had some once fired 223 brass from the US that i was able to resize and seat a bullet and fire them no problem. However on the very next firing the case would size. However when trying to seat the SS109 a former military bullet it was found that it just could be moved easily with your fingers or drop in or out. The bullet was found to be about 1 thou larger at the base than the rest of the contact surface area. The brass didnt have enough spring in it to close around the bullet as it was seated. After annealing there was no problem and the brass had the necessary spring in it to hold the bullet.