Why Short Range Load Testing Doesn't Work

[savageshooter86]

Donovan you the man. I knew I had seen this before just could not "dig it up" from the 1000s of threads I have read/seen ;D

Thanks.

I think this helps show how looking at targets at 100 yards can mislead you, when shooting that load out further.

 

[Link]

As a newbie - Q

So on dmoran's target would you pick load number 4 and tune from there?

Thanks

 

[savageshooter86]

Yes

 

[jsthntn247]

I shot this target at 100 yards Thursday morning in 45 minutes. I did no further test with the loads. I picked 45.0 grains because you can see by the target that its in the middle of a big node. I shot 45.0 today, for the first time, at a f/tr match today and dropped 11 points over 3 strings. The load had basically 0 verticle, you can lean something at 100 if you do the correct test. A ladder is not the correct test.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I shot this target at 100 yards Thursday morning in 45 minutes. I did no further test with the loads. I picked 45.0 grains because you can see by the target that its in the middle of a big node. I shot 45.0 today, for the first time, at a f/tr match today and dropped 11 points over 3 strings. The load had basically 0 verticle, you can lean something at 100 if you do the correct test. A ladder is not the correct test.

Nice job!

 

[Lapua40X]

So, to the OP, [br]
Given my experience, I say that your post significantly misrepresented reality....

All opinions are welcome. While I disagree, I certainly respect your point of view. Your comment regarding my "post" is, IMO, both an unnecessary judgement and totally out of line. I never said that some shooters can't get "lucky" - I've had my share of luck too. But as a rule I would never coach a new shooter to develop a load at 100 yards and take it out to compete at 1K.
If Donovan's test data doesn't support the intended initial argument, I guess nothing will.
Thanks, Donovan. I'm gonna save that for eternity.

 

[Hoier]

I don't think you should go as far to say that short range load testing doesn't work. There are several long range shooters that are successful. I know Bill Schrader(look him up in NBRSA 1k records) does all his load testing at 100. Jim also is no slouch in the 1k br game.

 

[Steve Blair]

So, to the OP, [br]
Given my experience, I say that your post significantly misrepresented reality....

All opinions are welcome. While I disagree, I certainly respect your point of view. Your comment regarding my "post" is, IMO, both an unnecessary judgement and totally out of line. I never said that some shooters can't get "lucky" - I've had my share of luck too. But as a rule I would never coach a new shooter to develop a load at 100 yards and take it out to compete at 1K.

[br]
I finished eighth in last year's F-Class Nats and this year's Berger SW LR Nats. I won matches and/or daily aggs in both tournaments. That is not luck. Given your experience level and no track record, except possibly shooting some "squirrels" at 300 yards, it is more than a little presumptuous to lecture about "Why Short Range Load Testing Doesn't Work", when it clearly can. [br]
There are several approaches that can develop effective long range loads and methodical development at 100 yards is one of them.

 

[6BRinNZ]

So, to the OP, [br]
Given my experience, I say that your post significantly misrepresented reality....

All opinions are welcome. While I disagree, I certainly respect your point of view. Your comment regarding my "post" is, IMO, both an unnecessary judgement and totally out of line. I never said that some shooters can't get "lucky" - I've had my share of luck too. But as a rule I would never coach a new shooter to develop a load at 100 yards and take it out to compete at 1K.
If Donovan's test data doesn't support the intended initial argument, I guess nothing will.
Thanks, Donovan. I'm gonna save that for eternity.

I wasn't going to post as I see the intent of your post but...

The problem is its such a strong statement and its intention is to help newbies....if they don't have more than 100 yards for load development it sounds like they are stuffed...so they shouldn't bother(?).

I can only load dev to 200 yards but I compete from 300 - 1000 and up to 1200 if I chose.

The upshot is - I had to find a way to complete load development at short ranges that would be competitive at long distances or don't compete...I don't deny Donovans data but I can't use it directly, I just need to be aware of it when I am validating my loads on the club days at the longer distances.

The other point to consider for newbies is how they interpret the results at longer range so they don't end up with skewed results due to conditions...

IMO

Load dev at any distance is tricky if we don't define what it is we need as an outcome
We haven't defined how we will analyse the data
We don't shoot the appropriate test in order to produce data that can be analysed according to the defined criteria. (This last bit is most likely Boyds point).

To me the newbie (actually all of us) needs a methodology for load development that covers much more than distance, once that is sorted, appropriate testing can be undertaken. This is why I quite like Erics thread with 100 yrd dev - it covers off a lot more than shooting groups at 100 yrds.

Finally the intent was to instruct, but if you take something away (100 yrd dev doesn't work) then it needs to be replaced i.e. how do you do it then...otherwise we are stuck with no where to go.

On this final point I would be interested to see how you complete your dev at longer distances with pictures etc, as I find there are always points to be taken away.

 

[M14AMU]

Actually...it's quite simple! If you're a Palma shooter and your load holds a vertical that's the height of the X ring.....your load development is a done deal!! ;D

 

[ShootDots]

If you read my previous post on here about the vertical "trouble" I had with my 6.5 x 284 at 1000 yards, you would know I had an "unusual" situation going on... Here is what "normal" looks like: I have a 6-6.5 x 47 Lapua that I built, to be one of my "primary" 600 yard rifles. I got, what I believed to be a very nice load that I developed at 300 yards. We had a 1000 yard shoot at Bayou Rifles a couple of months ago, so I wanted to see how it would do at that range. My thinking was that if it did well (at least well for me) that it would be a GREAT 600 yard shooter. Well we had our "normal" blustery / switching winds that really told me only one thing: I can't read wind very well at extended ranges! LOL!! So I decided to try it out in Beaumont at 600 yards. The Beaumont range is a fairly "sheltered" range and the wind is not usually a major factor to reckon with. True to form, today was a sultry, very calm day with wind only on the 3rd match... I ended up coming in 3rd with a 595-35X score. This tells me that my regular load development range of 300 yards was, once again, right on the money! So, as I previously stated, whatever range works for you, don't "FIX" what 'taint broken! Oh and by the way, an IBS "Benchrest" shooter came to the F-Open match today and beat us up severely, with a 600-42X score! My hat is off to that gent>>excellent shooting indeed!!

 

[johara1]

Donovan, I do believe in seeing small groups first .100 or less then repeat the same load 4 times in a row. If it holds i check to see if it will shoot in the wind, the zero it dead on at 100yds. move the knobs to zero and crank the elevation up 25 min. and i'm good to go.......... jim

 

[jo191145]

Lapua40X

Your 100yd Audette ladder indeed did work. It worked as well as it should anyway. What you learned is you have an accurate rifle and good choice in components. You need not look elsewhere. That's not bad for 18 rds of an inappropriate test. Glass half full or half empty?

 

[Raythemanroe]

I would have to think that a good 100y tuners has much experience and may lead a guy down a harder path! I can see from the holes that my gun is printing well and the carbon marks are complete but how to adjust it would probably come from much shooting (competition) experience. ladder testing and tuning at further distance seems a tad easier for me.

 

[BradY]

Load testing to me is really getting a bit too much like if you dont follow one method then it isnt right. I say let everyone do what they want and share experiences on what works for them. You cant assume what works for one person will work for another- we just arent all that alike be it in shooting skill, patience or mindset.

I personally do 3 shot replicated ladders at 900 meters. Its the furthest range I shoot f class and I dont have access to a chronograph otherwise I would work more at 300 meters and use the chronograph in conjunction with the ladders. Those 3 shot replicated ladders involve firing 3 shots of one charge, one bullet, one powder, one primer combination in a fouled barrel at a target and not changing the point of aim. Use the point of aim as a baseline and measure the vertical placement from each shot. After getting the results I do it again and again to confirm a load that shows the least amount of vertical spread between shots. I work in 0.3gr increments working in the charge zone that should provide 2800-3000fps. After this is done, pack the long range gear away. Of course change components if it doesnt work.

Once I find a powder charge window (typically around half a grain is what Ive found so far in a 308 family case) I work on seating depth. Seating depth again involves good conditions or at least good windflags and a 100 to 300 meter range working on suggested depths for that particular bullet. There is alot of info on the web now to suggest VLD's like a 10-15 thou jam or sometimes a 5 thou jump in a target rifle, and hybrids a 15 thou jump or 10-15 thou jam. Sierras are more jump tolerant than other bullets generally. I dont shoot much else personally because Ive never had to bad luck with bergers but that is pure personal experience. So back to seating depth if Im tuning a VLD load, I start 15 thou jam, 10 thou jam (usually end up the same results) and 5 thou jump. Hybrids I started at 5 thou jump and worked back in increments of 10 thou at a time. Sierras in the past have usually started around 25 thou jump and worked back in to the rifling at 5 thou at a time. Somewhere the spread (usually horizontal) tightens right up. Confirm the load shooting for score and thats it.

It worked fine in my 260 improved with 308 palma cases necked down, turned and fireformed, H4350 CCI450's and 140 hybrids straight up. Ive since tuned a load with 140 VLD's in case I cant get one or the other. Same powder and primer just half a grain lower charge for the jammed VLD compared to the jumped hybrid.

I have seen some rifles shoot well at 100m where the shooter thought he was onto a good thing but got vertical at long range 900 meter shooting. The powder charges were close to being right but needed to be dropped a little and vertical came good. I think with accurate calibers like 6BR and 6.5x47L its sometimes hard to see vertical at 100m when groups are generally good all the time. Thats where the aid of a chrony is helpful- to get a low velocity spread before trying loads developed at short ranges and getting vertical spread at long range and scratching the head trying to wonder what is going on.

 

[bigedp51]

Every year I sight my deer rifle in at 100 yards.
Every year before first light I climb into my tree stand.
Every year I conduct a ladder test and see if the old wooden ladder will hold my weight getting into the tree stand.
Every year a deer walks up to the corn I put out 40 yards from my tree stand and commits suicide.

“Short Range Load Testing Does Work”.............................
and even range estimation and ladder tests are unnecessary if you place the corn piles 5 feet apart.




This forum is such a target rich environment.

 

[Dgd6mm]

BIGED, NOW THAT IS FUNNY!!!!! ;D