Why not a 6 Dasher for 100/200yd Benchrest ?

[ronsatspokane]

When you show up with a 6 PPC, you've left nothing on the table. It's now a competition between you and your fellow shooters. Any success or lack thereof is pretty much yours.

When you show up with a 6 Dasher or any other experimental cartridge, you've got a ready-to-go excuse: "Well, I was shooting a Dasher so that's a disadvantage to begin with and that's why I'm in 40th place." You can't say that when you brought a 6 PPC and still land in 40th .

You should tell that to the winner of the Frombach match at Kenmore in Seattle at the end of last year. The benchrest event of the year in the PNW. He was shooting against life long benchrest shooters using the latest benchrest calibers like 30br. He won with a 6 Dasher. Shooting that same gun in mid-range matches at Machias (500 yards) in F Class, out of 60 rounds for record he scored 54x, 50x and 47x. Of course all of the targets but the first were clean. He dropped 1 point in that first match with 54 x's and placed third. Of the gentlemen who place first and second, one was the guy who won the Southwest Nationals in long range this year and the other won the mid-range and placed third in long range at the same match. You know who they are. The 2nd and 3rd matches he won. I had to give him shit for dropping 3 x's in the last match. Then I had to buy a gun that would run with that Dasher. We'll see if it does in the coming year but it'll be tough. That Dasher shoots. Especially in his hands.

 

[BartsBullets]

You should tell that to the winner of the Frombach match at Kenmore in Seattle at the end of last year. The benchrest event of the year in the PNW. He was shooting against life long benchrest shooters using the latest benchrest calibers like 30br. He won with a 6 Dasher. Shooting that same gun in mid-range matches at Machias (500 yards) in F Class, out of 60 rounds for record he scored 54x, 50x and 47x. Of course all of the targets but the first were clean. He dropped 1 point in that first match with 54 x's and placed third. Of the gentlemen who place first and second, one was the guy who won the Southwest Nationals in long range this year and the other won the mid-range and placed third in long range at the same match. You know who they are. The 2nd and 3rd matches he won. I had to give him shit for dropping 3 x's in the last match. Then I had to buy a gun that would run with that Dasher. We'll see if it does in the coming year but it'll be tough. That Dasher shoots. Especially in his hands.

What type of match was this (score, F Class) Also what distance was it shot at and under what organization was this match held. I can’t find any results.

Thanks in Advance
Bart

 

[Dusty Stevens]

What type of match was this (score, F Class) Also what distance was it shot at and under what organization was this match held. I can’t find any results.

Thanks in Advance
Bart

I thought the sniper king was the event of all events in the PNW benchrest scene?

 

[rsmithsr50]

next up try a 30br for your heavy gun

Well, I wouldn't call a 6-Dasher experimental. It has shot some really small groups at 600& 1000yds in the last couple of years. I am coming over from F-Class, mostly TR but let's compare F-Open. At any National Championship event, there are 8-10 different variants on 7mm cartridges, and a few 30cal all capable of winning. I have seen many sub 5" groups shot in less than ideal conditions off the ground shooting prone and on occasion seen 10 shots in a 3" spotter at 1000yds and the top ten are not shooting the same cartilage. So what most are saying that in short-range BR the 6ppc shooting 68gr bullets is the only cartridge capable of coming close to a winning combination, that's hard to fathom.
The responses I received here have talked me into building a 6PPC and are much appreciated, but someday you will see me shooting something other than the norm.

Al Barnhart
Applied Ballistics Lab.

 

[rsmithsr50]

nothing wrong with trying to improve on the current champ...but the 6 dasher is not it IMHO.

6PPC is an ideology...Granted, it's a good one that is based on good reason. It's not an accident that it shoots so well. Just the opposite...It was designed to shoot well...40 something years ago.

It has established parameters to work around that are hard to argue with but I am not of the belief that it can never be improved upon. There are other cartridges that can compete with it. Some hall of famers have shot variants of 22 ppc's for example. That in itself, says that there is room to possibly improve, or at least compete at the highest levels, unless hof status is a fluke occurrence in this sport, which I don't think is the case.

I will admit to what I alluded to at the start of this post...that a 6PPC is the standard and that anything that can compete with it at short range will likely be at least similar to it.

But..the bar should not be that everyone should shoot it, just because it holds such high esteem, particularly when there are few if any other cartridges being used at most matches. Hell, if everyone is shooting a 30-40 Krag, one will win every time.

Rather, we should strive to make it even better without diminishing the efforts of those that are actually trying to do just that...especially if they show up at matches and are actually competitive with something else, against a field full of PPC's.

I'd like to think that most of us are for furthering the sport rather than an ideology. I think Lou and Ferris would agree with me on that. After all, they created the PPC and it was the fruit of exactly the same logic that I'm conferring....not settling for the status quo.

 

[rsmithsr50]

yes it has been tried, but did not succeed.

While the Dasher has an illustrious career in long range and F disciplines, it doesn't have the same representation or history in short range, which lead to my experimental comment. I'd say the same about someone bringing a 308. It's still experimental in short range despite its long career in other disciplines.

Has anyone had much success trying the 222 again with modern equipment? That cartridge has always held a bit of nostalgic romance for me.

 

[rsmithsr50]

a mis-named match if there ever was one

I thought the sniper king was the event of all events in the PNW benchrest scene?

 

[johnmyers]

I've had 6 Dashers, 6 brs, 22 br, 30 br, 6 Grendle and 6 ppcs. On a given day they all shoot great but overall hard to beat a good 6ppc. A 6 Grendle and a 30 br are the only ones that can consistently run with a ppc. This is just what my experience has been, others may have a different opinion

 

[jamesdmock]

For 200 yard matches, I like the 6 PPC. Although I have won at 300 yards with a 6 PPC, I believe that on a given day the Dasher or BRA is better. On a day with "ice cream" conditions the 6 PPC excels at 300 yards, but on a typical day, the 105 bullets driven 2900 to 3000 fps seem to have an advantage. Good shooting....James PS- the target above is from one of our 300 yard matches and this one is 10 shots (for score only) and a 6 BRA with 8208 XBR and Bart's 105 gr. Hammers were used. The three low shots were shot first and then I adjusted up to finish the 10 shots. It looks like I over compensated a little.

 

[BoydAllen]

Ok. Here is the opportunity to ask my stupid question for the day. Why is the 30 Stewart not more popular for score or group. Bigger diameter bullet for score and world record for smallest group.

A record group may be shot by a cartridge that is not as good for consistent small aggregates. It is that simple. The previous small group was shot using a .222. Event winners are determined by the lowest average group size, counting all groups shot at that event. Not only do you have to shoot small, but you have to be consistent. For those that do not compete, if you think that your wallet group is how your rifle shoots, shoot five groups in a row, allowing seven minutes for each, unlimited sighters on a separate target, with a preset time table for when the shooting periods begin, and about 30 minutes between. Now shoot five more later in the day, and repeat it all the next day, for a total of 20 groups. Don't get me wrong, I have carried my share of wallet groups.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

^ thats how it is. You cant wait for a cakewalk

 

[Longrange57]

bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/09/blast-from-the-past-setting-benchrest-record-in-1955/

 

[DanSavage]

I wiffled a nice one with my 6br and 107 smk's, ended up first place with a clean 400-35x.
I do use the 6ppc at 300 when conditions aren't too bad, and I get nice tight groups if I can keep it under control and make sure there is no changes in wind.

 

[WyleWD]

A record group may be shot by a cartridge that is not as good for consistent small aggregates. It is that simple. The previous small group was shot using a .222. Event winners are determined by the lowest average group size, counting all groups shot at that event. Not only do you have to shoot small, but you have to be consistent. For those that do not compete, if you think that your wallet group is how your rifle shoots, shoot five groups in a row, allowing seven minutes for each, unlimited sighters on a separate target, with a preset time table for when the shooting periods begin, and about 30 minutes between. Now shoot five more later in the day, and repeat it all the next day, for a total of 20 groups. Don't get me wrong, I have carried my share of wallet groups.

+1^^ on Boyd's post where I've underlined it. That'll separate them pretty quick. Also I agree with John's post #54.

We've all seen matches decided by .002 after everyone has shot, and lost a match by one bad shot the whole day both in group and score. Whether it's a club match or an organized sanctioned match... you gotta bring the best you have and perform consistently well. JME. WD

 

[ronsatspokane]

What type of match was this (score, F Class) Also what distance was it shot at and under what organization was this match held. I can’t find any results.

Thanks in Advance
Bart

He shoots the Dasher in both benchrest and F Class. This was 300 yards benchrest. Not sure about organization. This is the story:

https://www.wcwi.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/NEWSLTRNov2019.pdf

 

[JFrank]

I thought the sniper king was the event of all events in the PNW benchrest scene?

That depends on perspective.
I prefer longer range shooting others not so much if I were a betting man I would say PRS would be the bigger events up in the PNW

 

[Longrange57]

This thread will really get you to thinking. I think it's worth a little shout out to those who have posted here as well as the many gunsmiths, bullet makers, barrel and powder manufacturers that have made it possible for us to shoot as well as we do! As others have posted....consistency and small at the same time is the name of the game. In 1955....65 years ago, a gentleman by the name of Barney Auston shot a record .46 moa agg at 200 yds with his .222 caliber rifle. This was five 10 shot groups. Not only do I wonder what his agg would have been with 5 shot groups but I wonder what our current agg's would be with 10 shot groups. One thing is for sure....the game of accurate shooting has come a long way! It has been possible because of folks like those posting on this forum and many other contributors around the world. You have all helped me tremendously!
I've done a short comparison of four years at the Cactus Classic where they host approx. 150 shooters every year. And what many of you have alluded to is apparent. I am amazed at the consistency. I fully agree with Boyd's comment on the wallet groups. I have been guilty of being proud of a few groups and very unhappy with many others. Some might ask....what if we shot all of our groups in a tunnel? That's not realistic and the elements for me is what really separates the good from the great! This does not answer the original question....which I think is a good one, but it was thinking out of the box that got us where we are!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

He shoots the Dasher in both benchrest and F Class. This was 300 yards benchrest. Not sure about organization. This is the story:

https://www.wcwi.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/NEWSLTRNov2019.pdf

Were you one of the 14 shooters there? I saw where it will be the siebert match coming up this month- do they change the name every year and last year was the fromback or will they have it again this year? I didnt recognize any of the shooters in the story, see if you can post a link after this year so we can see if he can do a repeat with that dasher

 

[ronsatspokane]

Were you one of the 14 shooters there? I saw where it will be the siebert match coming up this month- do they change the name every year and last year was the fromback or will they have it again this year? I didnt recognize any of the shooters in the story, see if you can post a link after this year so we can see if he can do a repeat with that dasher

I was not one of the shooters in that match. The Frombach is held every year. A number of the folks pictured were past years winners. A couple of them winners multiple times over the last couple decades. Local legend has it that Frombach and others from the Tacoma and Seattle area were pioneers in early benchrest shooting. It's an important match in the area watched by a lot of people even if they don't participate. The guy who sold the winner the rifle texted him shortly after and congratulated him. Even though he was also not at the match he knew what the results were. Not familiar with the siebert match or what the format would be. Yeah, it will be interesting to see if he repeats. I've shot that rifle of his. In 10-15 mph winds at 600 yards on electronic targets in Wenatchee I felt like I could place the shots where ever I wanted. It was an eye opener. Hope my new (to me) 6 BRA will run with it. We will see.

 

[WIB3]

The Dasher is not a short range cartridge. The 6ppc is not a long range cartridge. It’s quite simple. Take a PPC to a 1000yd benchrest competition and let us all know how you make out. C-12 racing gas can not complete against nitromethane.