Why not a 6 Dasher for 100/200yd Benchrest ?

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Wondering why I never see anything but 6PPC in short-range BR? I will be building a new BR rifle and would really like to give it a go with something other than the norm.

Last year's UBR Nationals

Modified class
7 out of 20 guns were 6PPC's.
1st- 6ppc
2nd- 6br
3rd-22ppc
4th-6ppc
5th-6ppc

Custom class
30 out of 44 were 6ppc's
1st- 6 Grendel
2nd- 30 Major(Grendel)
3rd-6ppc
4th- 30br
5th- 6ppc

Unlimited class
18 of 30 guns were 6ppc's
1st- 6bra
2nd- 6ppc
3rd- 30br
4th- 220 beggs
5th 22ppc

UBR is caliber neutral, hence has a fair showing of several different cartridges in equipment that is basically identical to hv group guns, all competing head to head. It's the only short range game out there where you'll see so many different chamberings competing against one another.

Make what you will of the results but they are what they are.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

When the barrel manufactures lists a barrel as light varmint can I assume that it will meet the IBS/NBRSA rules for contour?

Yes, unless something is really screwy. Max contour is HV in both lv and hv class. The 10.5lb weight limit in lv is why you don't see any hv contours in light class.

 

[JFrank]

Last year's UBR Nationals

Modified class
7 out of 20 guns were 6PPC's.
1st- 6ppc
2nd- 6br
3rd-22ppc
4th-6ppc
5th-6ppc

Custom class
30 out of 44 were 6ppc's
1st- 6 Grendel
2nd- 30 Major(Grendel)
3rd-6ppc
4th- 30br
5th- 6ppc

Unlimited class
18 of 30 guns were 6ppc's
1st- 6bra
2nd- 6ppc
3rd- 30br
4th- 220 beggs
5th 22ppc

UBR is caliber neutral, hence has a fair showing of several different cartridges in equipment that is basically identical to hv group guns, all competing head to head. It's the only short range game out there where you'll see so many different chamberings competing against one another.

Make what you will of the results but they are what they are.

Kinda Like the Democrats , a mixed bag of nuts

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Kinda Like the Democrats , a mixed bag of nuts

Definitely, a bunch of nuts in this group. But they are some very good shooters.

 

[BoydAllen]

When the barrel manufactures lists a barrel as light varmint can I assume that it will meet the IBS/NBRSA rules for contour?

The best route is to consult the rule (available on line) but yes, generally it will be OK, but there are other considerations as to the configuration of your rifle's barrel. Generally, these all relate to rifle weight.

 

[Evan]

When you show up with a 6 PPC, you've left nothing on the table. It's now a competition between you and your fellow shooters. Any success or lack thereof is pretty much yours.

When you show up with a 6 Dasher or any other experimental cartridge, you've got a ready-to-go excuse: "Well, I was shooting a Dasher so that's a disadvantage to begin with and that's why I'm in 40th place." You can't say that when you brought a 6 PPC and still land in 40th .

 

[Mulligan]

I have a heavy 22 pound dasher I built for f-class

I took it to the short range BR range the other day to see what it would do at 100 and 200.

I shot a few groups, adjusted the tuner shot more, repeated that a couple times. Shot 3 or 4 groups in the high 1s and low 2s.

I have never tried it in a 10.5 lb gun

CW

 

[ALppc]

Well, I wouldn't call a 6-Dasher experimental. It has shot some really small groups at 600& 1000yds in the last couple of years. I am coming over from F-Class, mostly TR but let's compare F-Open. At any National Championship event, there are 8-10 different variants on 7mm cartridges, and a few 30cal all capable of winning. I have seen many sub 5" groups shot in less than ideal conditions off the ground shooting prone and on occasion seen 10 shots in a 3" spotter at 1000yds and the top ten are not shooting the same cartilage. So what most are saying that in short-range BR the 6ppc shooting 68gr bullets is the only cartridge capable of coming close to a winning combination, that's hard to fathom.
The responses I received here have talked me into building a 6PPC and are much appreciated, but someday you will see me shooting something other than the norm.

Al Barnhart
Applied Ballistics Lab.

 

[Tim Singleton]

You are not alone
A lot of people who havent been to a SR group match think the Dasher and other 6br variants can compete at a 100-200 group match
Sometimes you just have to see it to believe it

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

6PPC is an ideology...Granted, it's a good one that is based on good reason. It's not an accident that it shoots so well. Just the opposite...It was designed to shoot well...40 something years ago.

It has established parameters to work around that are hard to argue with but I am not of the belief that it can never be improved upon. There are other cartridges that can compete with it. Some hall of famers have shot variants of 22 ppc's for example. That in itself, says that there is room to possibly improve, or at least compete at the highest levels, unless hof status is a fluke occurrence in this sport, which I don't think is the case.

I will admit to what I alluded to at the start of this post...that a 6PPC is the standard and that anything that can compete with it at short range will likely be at least similar to it.

But..the bar should not be that everyone should shoot it, just because it holds such high esteem, particularly when there are few if any other cartridges being used at most matches. Hell, if everyone is shooting a 30-40 Krag, one will win every time.

Rather, we should strive to make it even better without diminishing the efforts of those that are actually trying to do just that...especially if they show up at matches and are actually competitive with something else, against a field full of PPC's.

I'd like to think that most of us are for furthering the sport rather than an ideology. I think Lou and Ferris would agree with me on that. After all, they created the PPC and it was the fruit of exactly the same logic that I'm conferring....not settling for the status quo.

 

[JimPag]

Unless I missed something, the object of shooting short range benchrest matches is to win them. If you think that the people who are are shooting PPCs because they lack the imagination to consider alternatives I respectfully suggest that you rethink your position. They come to win, with the best equipment that they can find. While many are on a budget, some are not. With all of their experience, if they thought that another cartridge would give them an edge, they would be shooting it. Over the years, there has been a lot of experimentation. The net result is that for IBS or NBRSA score, build a .30 BR. For short range group, build a 6PPC. If you want to shoot something different, good luck. I wish you well, but chances are, at least in group, you will be decreasing your chance of winning. On the other hand it is your hobby, and if that makes you happy, be happy, and if your success makes a liar of me, I will be smiling when I read about it.

This pretty much sums it up. I couldn't of said it better.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

This pretty much sums it up. I couldn't of said it better.

Boyd is very good with words and he's a friend of mine...but I'm not sure how many 30 Majors or 6 Grendels he has to compare to. Actually, I bet none! Those are just examples and maybe I'm wrong. I've had numerous 30BR's and 6PPC's, though...and I actually prefer a 30 Major over a 30 BR and a 6 Grendel over a 6 PPC. But that's just me. Seldom do I do anything, because it's most popular. I judge these things for myself and oftentimes I do wind up with the popular option or way of doing things....but certainly not always. I also use to clean my primer pockets and trim my brass after every firing. I also brushed the necks and polished my brass. I quit doing some of those things after I stopped doing what I read that I had to do to win...put more time in, behind a rifle..and won a national championship....my way.

 

[Longrange57]

I love the diversity in UBR. For those who want to explore....I think its great for the sport. I have a very good PPC that I shoot at the lower node with 27.8 vv133 and 64 Bergers. Last 13 group agg .261 at 100 in near perfect conditions. On the other hand my 10tw 6BR 2's and 3's with 70 gr fb bullet. One of our world class shooters can shoot my gun with my loads and win! If I shoot his gun with his loads....he still wins! To make matters worse he can take my 6BR and beat me shooting the PPC. As you can see I'm an average shooter that has been shooting for years, but some just have the ability to judge the wind much better. Several very good shooters have commented that they would like to try something different due to the wind at 200 yards, but make the comment that they have a lot of time, effort, and money tied up in what they have. They have also made the comment that if all short range shooters went to a Grendel or BR and put forth the same amount of work as has been put into the PPC, you would see really small groups. As has been stated, PPC is great and a proven winner and I'll probably always own one. However, I become more fond of my BR every day. After what I've witnessed with my own eyes....14tw barrel and optimized with a good shooter. Who knows???

 

[Evan]

Well, I wouldn't call a 6-Dasher experimental. It has shot some really small groups at 600& 1000yds in the last couple of years. I am coming over from F-Class, mostly TR but let's compare F-Open.

While the Dasher has an illustrious career in long range and F disciplines, it doesn't have the same representation or history in short range, which lead to my experimental comment. I'd say the same about someone bringing a 308. It's still experimental in short range despite its long career in other disciplines.

Has anyone had much success trying the 222 again with modern equipment? That cartridge has always held a bit of nostalgic romance for me.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I think one of the misconceptions out there is that there is no experimentation going on
That everyone is just here following and shooting a ppc
That's not an accurate representation
I would say experimentation is alive and well. A lot of competitors shoot some variation of the ppc and are constantly looking for an edge
It would be foolish to think we are not

 

[Tim Singleton]

Innovated thought such as bore rider reamers come from short range group experimentation
Aggs are so small now with teen aggs being what it takes to win
Innovations aren't just in the case design is what I'm trying to say

 

[jamesdmock]

A couple of years prior to his death, I had the privilege to interview Ferris Pindell (one of the "P's" in PPC). Ferris showed me a new 105 gr. match VLD bullet to which he had used his new die to point it. He told me that he would probably shoot a bullet similar to this at 200 yards if he competed in Benchrest today. I asked would he drive it with the PPC case and his answer was "no". He said that the PPC case was not large enough to drive a bullet that heavy. Instead, he stated that he would probably choose the 6 BR case.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

One thing that stands out to me in SR, and no matter which chamber or caliber, 99% are all variations based off only 2 "mother cases".

But 99% of the experimenters are using another case besides a 220 russian- theres alot going on people dont realize. Like tim said they think we’re only using the ppc but we’re only winning with the ppc is the reality

 

[Dusty Stevens]

A couple of years prior to his death, I had the privilege to interview Ferris Pindell (one of the "P's" in PPC). Ferris showed me a new 105 gr. match VLD bullet to which he had used his new die to point it. He told me that he would probably shoot a bullet similar to this at 200 yards if he competed in Benchrest today. I asked would he drive it with the PPC case and his answer was "no". He said that the PPC case was not large enough to drive a bullet that heavy. Instead, he stated that he would probably choose the 6 BR case.
View attachment 1160990

That was pre-grendel

 

[Greyfox]

Well, I wouldn't call a 6-Dasher experimental. It has shot some really small groups at 600& 1000yds in the last couple of years. I am coming over from F-Class, mostly TR but let's compare F-Open. At any National Championship event, there are 8-10 different variants on 7mm cartridges, and a few 30cal all capable of winning. I have seen many sub 5" groups shot in less than ideal conditions off the ground shooting prone and on occasion seen 10 shots in a 3" spotter at 1000yds and the top ten are not shooting the same cartilage. So what most are saying that in short-range BR the 6ppc shooting 68gr bullets is the only cartridge capable of coming close to a winning combination, that's hard to fathom.
The responses I received here have talked me into building a 6PPC and are much appreciated, but someday you will see me shooting something other than the norm.

Al Barnhart
Applied Ballistics Lab.

I can only speak for UBR as I've only competed in one group match and one long range match and both were a long time ago. That being said, we did have a shooter some years back who won a few Modified Class UBR matches with a Savage chambered in 6 Dasher. As I recall it was a 1-8" twist and he was shooting 105-108 bullets. He shot very well, but did not come close to competing with Custom or Unlimited scores. Occasionally at our matches we have winners shooting BRs and BRAs. Lately these have been 10-12 twists with 80gr Hillbilly bullets. I've won a couple with a 6 Grinch, but have been driving it too hard and the cases don't hold up. Will be trying it again this season with a little less powder and Lapua Brass rather than Norma or Starline. The experiment with the other two was worthwhile, but there is no point in continuing with it. We'll see how the lapua does. 3400 is pushing an 80gr pretty hard from a Gendel case. As to the 222. It has been used at times. If fact, it won SSOY Modified class 6-7 years ago. It would compete well at 100, but didn't have enough speed to hold up at 200. There have been many UBR matches won by something other than a 6 PPC. These would include 30BR, 30 Major, 30 PPC, 6 BR, 6 BRA, 6 Beggs, etc. Also, the 22s rounds are showing up more frequently with 220 Beggs, 22 PPC, 22 PPC-.100 being the most popular. But all that being said, if you went through all the matches and could get the data, you would find that the 6 PPC still has won the most. A good argument can be made that this is because more folks shoot them than any other. But other cartridges can and do win, sometimes beating 6 PPCs. Most of us like to win, but some of us experiment as well. I don't think a Dasher is a good choice for SR, but show up with it and we'll be happy to have you compete. We might learn something.

Rick