Why am I getting copper fouling?

[Jim_B]

I've got a Remington 700 in .223 Remington that's completely "stock",26" heavy barrel). I'll start off with a clean barrel and after firing about 50-60 rounds of factory ammo,Hornady, Remington or Winchester) I'm getting streaks of copper fouling. I don't have a borescope, but I can see it's at least in the inch or so before the muzzle. I'd guess it's in the rest of the barrel, as well.

Despite the fouling, it shoots about as well as I'd expect from factory equipment - about .75 MOA.

I'm using Sweet's and my Outer's Foul-Out,electronic bore cleaner) to remove the copper.

Any idea why this is happening and what to do about it? I'm pretty sure it isn't normal...

 

[Jim_B]

I'm not sure you should assume that the entire bore is fouled.

Good point. If I push a brush through the bore, I can feel more resistance as it nears the muzzle.

The bullet is traveling at it's highest velocity at the muzzle. If you're going to get copper laid on the lands, this is where it really should happen.

Maybe the 26" barrel contributes to this?,More velocity than a shorter barrel).

You didn't mention how many rounds you have through the barrel. If it's pretty new it's going to foul for a while then should get better. You should be able to go significantly more than 50-60 rounds with a .223 before fouling is a problem.

Not quite sure on the round count; I bought the gun used,but in excellent condition). I wouldn't say the fouling is a problem,the gun shoots well), but I haven't really seen it before in any of my other guns.

A little J-B bore paste as part of your cleaning process a time or two will help the "lapping with factory ammo" process along.

I'll give it a try!

Most Remington barrels I've looked at have a lot of axial machine marks through the length of the barrel plus "chatter" marks in the grooves. A couple of newer ones, in the last year or so, were much better. Not like a hand lapped custom job, but really not bad. The new ones didn't shoot any better than the old ones but they didn't foul nearly as quickly.

I'd say the gun's at least a few years old and, like most factory barrels, the machining leaves a bit to be desired.

If you get tempted to "fire lap" the barrel my experience has been that the barrels comes out a lot smoother. They have also have had the lands moved forward about 0.100" or more.

I might look into this.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[M700]

Jim B - I've had factory barrels that never did quit fouling. Ever. I'd clean 'em and get 'em all squared away - then the next time I shot them, the copper fouling was back. Rough factory bores I'd guess. Just something that comes with a factory barrel.

A couple of those barrels shot really well fouled like that though.

FWIW, Guy

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

I had a factory Rem 700 LTR in .223,20" barrel not a 26") that was having a copper issue also. I tried the final finish, just ten shots of the finest grain, and the copper fouling almost quit.

Rifle shot about the same as yours. Didn't shoot better afterwards, but sure could go further in between, and was easier to clean as well.

I would recommend the FF in a fouling/poor shooting factory barrel as you really have nothing to lose. However, I would NEVER recommend the stuff in a hand-lapped barrel. No way...

Just my $.02

Mark

 

[jdavis62]

l had the same thing,l meet a retired engineer from Remington
and he told me that all hammer forged barrels should have three
inchs removed from each end,it is removed by the chamber on one
end but you should cut the front three inchs also.l done this
and my two 700-223's now shoot 3/4 inch at 200yds.lt works give
it a try you will love it.
Jon D.

 

[ReedG]

If you want to see what the inside of a new Remington factory barrel looks like, go to this site:

Lilja Barrels

I personally have never seen a factory barrel that did not copper foul. After 200 or so rounds they will smooth out some, but unless you're into Coopers or Sakos you are left with some pretty undesirable factory barrels. Even the Savages which seem to shoot real well have fouling problems. Final Finish seems to help, though I've never used it.

As far as what the engineer said about cutting off the end of hammer-forged barrels, that might be correct, but he sure was referring to a Remington barrel because they are not hammer forged. That would cost too much money but would make a much smoother bore.

Some expensive custom barrels also copper foul. I know several guys with Krieger and Lilja barrels and some never foul and others foul badly, using the same loads and cleaning regimen.

I leave Sweet's 7.62 in my bores overnight all the time. All my barrels, custom and factory, are stainless and I have not had problems. It must be followed by a thorough cleaning to make sure it is neutralized and then a light oiling. Butch's is the best all-around cleaner I've used and can be left in the bore for days. JB's seems to me to work better on hard carbon fouling than on copper but it is excellent.

Clean often. Use a good bronze brush. Enjoy your rifle.

 

[jdavis62]

Reed Thats funny Remington say;s they are Hammer Forged.
so tell me what you know l don't.Thank you..
Jon D.

 

[ReedG]

Hi Jon:

I probably don't know anything you don't. I did a search on the Remington site and cannot find any statement of how they make their barrels.

But here's a quote from an article by Jon Sundra on Rifle Shooter web site: "The fact that hammer forging works is attested to by the fact that most of the major firearms manufacturers use it - Remington, Winchester, Ruger, Sako and Steyr, to name a few. Indeed, Savage may be the only major company that uses button rifling. Obviously, either method is capable of producing an accurate barrel."

This definitely indicates that Remington is using hammer forging, which makes me curious as to how they get such a rough bore. If you have ever compared pushing a patch down a Sako barrel to pushing one down a Remington barrel, you will ask the same question.

Anyway, at this point I stand,actually sit) corrected.

 

[jdavis62]

Reed what l was told was the best barrels that are hammer forged
are made from very good blanks that are polished before formed
into barrels and forming was done on polished mandills.l was
told Remington does not do this to the same degree...
Thats about all l know.Be nice if a good barrel man could jump
in and tell us all about it...Your friend...Jon D.

 

[ReedG]

It seems as though so much of the stuff we contend and consider is pretty superfluous anyway. Ruger, as an example, does it ALL wrong: the actions are made from castings, the recoil lug is slanted, and the barrels are hammer-forged. Yet I find the M77 MII actions to be one of the smoothest and nicest actions out there and the ones I have had all would shoot less than MOA.

Had a gunsmith tell me he doesn't work on Ruger M77s because they are a piece of cast junk. Yet Farley actions which are quite good BR and custom rifle actions are also castings.

So many opinions with a few facts scattered around makes it difficult. Most of these companies are not even American-owned anymore. Now Remington is even marketing Czech Mausers with the Remington name stamped on 'em. Nothing is sacred.

I still find it hard to believe Remington barrels are hammer-forged, but I certainly DO NOT know and think I'll go take one of my Savages to the range!

 

[Forum Boss]

If you have some old 35mm film cannisters or little plastic cups,the kind they give away at fast-food joints), you can do your own little test of the efficacy of copper solvents.

Weigh a bullet, then put it in the cup covered with the solvent of your choice, then leave for X hours,I did it for 24 hours).

Then rinse off the bullet and re-weigh it. I did this recently with WipeOut,and 105gr Scenar) as a supplement to a test run by a UK Website. The WipeOut removed 0.8 grains of jacket material. This was about twice as much copper as many popular conventional solvents. The UK test were done with a 210gr bullet, so one can't extrapolate exactly, but I came away very impressed with the foam's ability to attack copper.

See the current BLOG on home page for more info:

 

[Jim_B]

Guys,

Thanks for the replies - the info is much appreciated!

-Jim