Who Can Outshoot Their Rifle?

[Toby Bradshaw]

In other words, I can see how good equipment always helps.

How MUCH does it help with a rifle?

The flags change, the clock is winding down, and you have one shot left to put on your record target. You go to the sighter and the bullet is two holes to the left of your first sighter in the original condition. If you have a good rifle, you go to the record target and hold two bullet holes to the right, saving your group. Now you've learned something that a less accurate rifle can't teach you -- which is why plenty of ace wind dopers can look at the flags and KNOW where to hold, without wasting time on the sighter. In fact, most short-range BR shooters use each shot on the record target as a sighter, and as often as not are holding in 5 different places to shoot their group.

Here's a target from a factory BR match shot with my 700V .222 at 200 yards. As you can see from the sighter, I was holding all over the place to keep the record near the 10 ring. [Ignore the .30 cal crossfire on target #1.] If you can't trust your rifle you can't learn to dope the wind or learn table manners.



Any semi-skilled BR shooter can figure out whether a barrel is great, good, OK, or bad in a dozen or two shots. Likewise for a new lot of bullets.

How much does any of this matter? It depends on whether you want to win (or at least be in the hunt).

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?94197-Understanding-your-competition-benchrest-rifle

 

[BoydAllen]

The original question confirms a lack of experience with the most accurate class of rifles. If the questioner had that experience, he would know that while equipment is no substitute for shooter ability, it takes both. I have a well built, custom actioned, under 10.5# 6PPC, that I shoot off of a good rest/sandbag setup, over flags, tuning as I go, at the range. When I switch barrels, my results vary. I will shoot smaller groups on average with the better barrel. Certainly, the ability to tune and read flags varies significantly from shooter to shooter, and these are always going to be major factors, but there is absolutely no doubt that I shoot better with better equipment.

 

[Eddie Harren]

"Can anyone here out-shoot their rifle?"

Oh Yeah, there are a ton of people, on the internet shooting sites, that can do that. "All day long if I do my part!"

 

[dcali]

I agree with you.

Quite a bit of people would be surprised how well some noobies can shoot right of the bat as long as they get the right instructions from a experienced shooter.

Exactly. I think there is a lot of fear of being "that guy" who blames his equipment (nobody likes that guy - what an ass!), and so new shooters (typically shooting with inexpensive gear) are inclined to blame themselves for the rifle's flaws rather than be that guy. But a lot of time, with substandard gear, it really is the rifle. Minimal shooting competence can be learned in an afternoon of good instruction.

 

[Jammer Six]

So a guy goes to the range with his old beater. He shoots. Then he sets up his brand new, state-of-the-internet 6.583 mm, laser guided, sonic activated, wire guided rail gun, fires off a handful of twenty-five dollar rounds, and lo and behold, his score goes up.

What happens if someone else then picked up his old beater, and beat his new score with it?

Isn't that possible? Or will the best rifle always win?

Part of this, I suppose, is my resistance to spending ten or fifteen thousand on a rifle until I get the hole with my off-the-shelf Ruger and my SWFA scope as small as I can get it, by loading, testing, and training.

 

[dcali]

A 4 MOA (new) shooter with a perfect rifle is going to shoot 4 MOA.
A perfect (Lord High Grand Master) shooter with a 5 MOA rifle is going to shoot 5 MOA.

New shooter wins over Lord High Grand Master consistently. Everyone needs a good rifle to shoot their best.

 

[Jammer Six]

(sigh...)

This is going to be as expensive as diving was. And I thought I was hot stuff because I had a compressor.

 

[jimcasey01]

Like most competitive endeavors in life, to realistically attempt to rise to the upper echelons (in any field where we use equipment) requires a tremendous amount of time and effort, as well as a very generous amount of money. You have mentioned that you are in a woodworking field, how many of your shop or field tools came from Big Lots or K-Mart? I suspect the answer is none.

 

[people]

I have several that I can out shoot.

 

[BoydAllen]

If one is going to ask intelligent questions about something, it is usually a good idea to learn as much as possible on your own so that the question does not reveal how little effort you have put into the inquiry. Questions that do not show this sort of effort are generally a waste of time. Rail guns are not used to shoot score, and neither they or the typical top grade bag gun costs as much as was mentioned. Match reloads are not significantly more expensive than varmint rounds, differing only by the cost of bullets. As long as he is safe and having a good time, there is no need to change one's shooting program. I started with a 788 .308 and a Lee Loader, and had as much fun then as I do now, with much fancier equipment. It is a hobby.

 

[perry42]

Easy answer: NO

perry42

 

[Wjesswheel]

Rifles add error. Everyone can outshoot their rifle.

I live in a shotgun state that just legalized high power for deer on private ground. So there were a bunch of new rifle shooters just Pryor to deer season. Three Sunday's in a row i went out late in the day to work up some loads and had the privilege of seeing 3 different guys on three different Sunday's hit the ceiling baffles at the 40 yard mark on a 100 yard range. The baffles are at least 16 feet off the ground. How do you miss that far. Guess them rifles added a lot of error.

 

[K22]

For a competitive shooter; the firearm should be capable of delivering "X" ring accuracy with target grade ammunition. When I shot competitive pistol we tested our pistols on a Ransom rest at 50 yards which eliminated most if not all of any shooter error. My Model 41 S&W would hold a 10 shot "X" as would my accuratized 45 ACP. From that point I knew my equipment was capable of winning a match. It then became matter of improving my marksmanship skills to match the capability of the pistol.

I never shot competitive rifle except for a brief time shooting 3 position Rimfire but I imagine the same principle would apply to rifles. You have to know that your rifle is capable. However I'm not aware of any device that lends itself to testing a rifle's capability with a device such as a Ransom rest because even shooting off the bench from a stable rest there can be considerable shooter error but it may be the best that can be done. In any event I would want a rifle that could hold a "X" or close to it testing it in the most stable setup as possible. If you're rifle can hold a "X" ring then you're peeing in the wind.

 

[madderg]

I have known people that have taken a Marlin lever action in 30-30 and can consistently drop deer, on the run at well over 100 yards. The man or woman and the rifle can fit together and become more the both. Practice and knowledge....

 

[george]

What I'm after, I guess, is this: if you shoot your rifle, and then someone hands you a rifle that's in a much higher class than your rifle, will your scores improve?

My bet is no. My bet is that most of us shoot the rifle we have to the best of our ability, and the rifle is limited by the shooter, not the shooter by the rifle.

YES you will shoot better you can only be as good as your rifle.

 

[SheepDog]

I have only one gun that I know for a fact I can out shoot. It's an SKS and the best groups I have shot with it are 3" +/-
All my bolt guns shoot sub MOA - including my old Remington 581 22 LR. The best group I have shot was a .300" group with my custom made 358 Winchester. None of my guns are "competition or target" guns. I use my 581 in competition, small bore silhouette, but it is a hunting rifle. My 358, and 3006 are hunting rifles as are my 223, 257, 7mm TCU, 30-30 and the rest. They all shoot sub MOA with my "hunting" handloads. That being said I do think it may be possible that a new barrel on my 03A3 would improve my shooting but the gun was bought by my dad (RIP) and it was the first center rifle I ever shot. (some 56 years ago or a bit more) Dad put a semi-finished sportsman stock on it that he rubbed boiled linseed oil into for weeks. I had the bolt turned and the scope mounted when my eyes could no longer shoot due to not being able to focus on the front sight and see anything beyond 25 yards. I killed my first deer with that gun, and I have used it plinking, target shooting (informal), and hunting. I'm not sure I will ever be able to put a new barrel on it. I never want to retire it either so one day I will have to choose.

 

[Jammer Six]

Like most competitive endeavors in life, to realistically attempt to rise to the upper echelons (in any field where we use equipment) requires a tremendous amount of time and effort, as well as a very generous amount of money. You have mentioned that you are in a woodworking field, how many of your shop or field tools came from Big Lots or K-Mart? I suspect the answer is none.

Huh. You have a point there. There are certain things I use from big-box stores, things that are the standards in the field. An example is a Skil 77M. It is what it is, and where you buy it doesn't change anything.

But I think the point of your post is the quality, and you're absolutely right about that. All my tools and equipment are professional grade, not homeowner grade. They'd never last and while I can make them work, everything is just easier with professional grade equipment.

 

[Jammer Six]

That being said I do think it may be possible that a new barrel on my 03A3 would improve my shooting but the gun was bought by my dad (RIP) and it was the first center rifle I ever shot.

I'd never change the barrel.

 

[Shynloco]

I've seen shooters that no rifle would help and I've seen shooters who had poor equipment. It's almost magical when a good shooter uses good equipment.

IMHO, what SheepDog writes is critical to success and consistency. The problem with the theory of someone handing a top notch rifle to another shooter is people make an "assumption" that a shooter would instantly familiarize himself with a new piece of equipment and thereby shoot the proverbial, "bugholes." But someone with outstanding shooting skills can put up some impressive numbers with a quality rifle, even though he or she has spent virtually no time in practice with said rifle.

In my experiences, the top notch shooters have chosen certain pieces of equipment (beyond the rifle itself) for the simple reason that they've found the best combination of equipment that furthers their abilities as a shooter. Different people have different styles of shooting and even in their setups. So don't make the mistake of "ASSUMING" a rifle alone will move you from 110 on the score sheet to number 1. But then at the same time, don't make the repeated mistake (which I've seen especially in Rimfire competition) of "thinking" that a $700 rifle will shoot like a $5,000 rifle (without glass). Ain't happin! And frankly, honest evaluation of one's shooting skills isn't an easily done as many think. But sitting down on a competition line sometimes teaches humility in a hurry. And it ain't always the rifle's fault either.

Alex

 

[338 Mollett]

To open a perspective then why would the top bench and f open guys go through 20 barrels to find one that shoots if it were not an issue?