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Which Published Berger BCs Are From Predictions Rather than Measurements?

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Busdriver said:
Vague, insulting, and threatening. Did I hit a nerve? I'll let you have the last word. I'm done with you.

Sorry if I offended you. You won't find any DoD scientists willing to send raw data to anonymous internet posters. You'd be surprised how many requests we get from enemies of the United States for access to confidential information. There are established protocols to prevent export of certain materials.

You can't even buy ABM Ammo (Berger's spinoff ammo company) without agreeing to the export restrictions and leaving a pretty good paper trail. Does this offend you too?
 
Michael Courtney said:
Busdriver said:
Vague, insulting, and threatening. Did I hit a nerve? I'll let you have the last word. I'm done with you.

Sorry if I offended you. You won't find any DoD scientists willing to send raw data to anonymous internet posters. You'd be surprised how many requests we get from enemies of the United States for access to confidential information. There are established protocols to prevent export of certain materials.

You can't even buy ABM Ammo (Berger's spinoff ammo company) without agreeing to the export restrictions and leaving a pretty good paper trail. Does this offend you too?

I'm still waiting for you and the other DoD scientists to create the jacket I asked for earlier so JLK's don't cost so much.
 
savage6.5 said:
I'm still waiting for you and the other DoD scientists to create the jacket I asked for earlier so JLK's don't cost so much.

Wrong department. Engineers reduce costs. Scientists perform experiments, develop theories, and compare theories with experimental data.

The solutions to rising copper costs and rising manufacturing costs for precision products is much more political than scientific or engineering related. Obama and the democrats in Congress have done everything within their power to reduce ammo availability and drive up costs including lots of bureaucracy impacting the lead and copper markets and driving up the cost of labor. EPA nonsense and Obamacare barely scratch the surface. DoD scientists can't solve the EPA and congress for you.
 
Michael Courtney said:
wapiti25 said:
I agree with Nomad, Michael take your XXXX XXXX and go some where else and smear it.

Aww. Did your favorite company get caught in a lie? :o :o :o

Nope - quite the contrary. My 1000 yard data is spot on using Berger's published data for their 105 Hybrid, velocity measured by my MagnetoSpeed chronograph, and JBM Ballistics.

Like busdriver, I am done with you and your snide insinuations.
 
Nomad47 said:
Michael Courtney said:
wapiti25 said:
I agree with Nomad, Michael take your XXXX XXXX and go some where else and smear it.

Aww. Did your favorite company get caught in a lie? :o :o :o

Nope - quite the contrary. My 1000 yard data is spot on using Berger's published data for their 105 Hybrid, velocity measured by my MagnetoSpeed chronograph, and JBM Ballistics.

Like busdriver, I am done with you and your snide insinuations.

If Ford lied about the horsepower of all their SUVs, could someone claim, "There is no problem, my pickup truck is performing great"?

I think you'll keep reading. You may have learned to ignore the truth, but somewhere in your science education, you learned that truth is about data, and you know that the good Dr. Courtney will show you where the data is and where it is not.
 
Why?

I would rather have the choice to read or not to read and decide on the merits, or lack thereof, of content. I prefer that over censorship.
 
Yes Jay I agree. Agree to disagree.

I have learned a few things from reading this and would hate to see it disappear.
 
IMHO by singling out a couple "specific" bullets from a single maker and not all makers REEKS of bias (include all makers or none). The BETTER thing to do is GIVE BERGER the data and let them do as they see fit with it. I'm guessing our TAX dollars are paying for these studies correct ?
 
CJ6 said:
IMHO by singling out a couple "specific" bullets from a single maker and not all makers REEKS of bias (include all makers or none). The BETTER thing to do is GIVE BERGER the data and let them do as they see fit with it. I'm guessing our TAX dollars are paying for these studies correct ?

If you read carefully, I have pointed out that we've tested bullets from numerous manufacturers, including ATK, Nosler, Hornady, Barnes, Federal and Speer. This post is focused on Berger, because it recently came to light that Berger made claims to have revised its BCs based on measured numbers when the revised BCs for 1/4 to 1/3 of their bullets were based on theoretical predictions and the BCs were not really measured by firing bullets.

If FORD was advertising theoretical horsepower as measured horsepower for 1/4 to 1/3 of their vehicles, would the BETTER thing for an independent or government test lab who discovered the false advertising be to give FORD the data and let FORD decide what to do with it?

While I worked for the Air Force, their main contribution to my ballistics research was paying my salary and approving a small portion or my time to be used for ballistics research. The DoD never paid a cent for bullets, firearms, chronographs, brass, powder, or transportation. All these were paid for by privately funded research partners. The Air Force did allow occasional use of a high speed video camera for ballistics projects. They also approved collaborations I had with other DoD employees.

In return, we provided DoD with a number of important research results:

We developed much more cost effective and easily applied methods to quantify the damping of pitch and yaw of bullets in flight.

We developed methods for measuring the retarding force of bullets in ballistic gelatin and evaluated the terminal ballistics of several 9mm, .357 Sig, and trans/subsonic 7.62mm bullets.

We evaluated 62 grain jacketed lead bullets that could be stabilized in the Air Force's large stock of M16A1 rifles as potential ballistic training equivalents to the M855 rounds that cannot be stabilized in these older training rifles.

We developed (with Don Miller) and experimentally validated improved stability formulas to quickly and accurately (within 5%) predict gyroscopic stability of plastic tipped bullets and open tipped match rifle bullets. Previously, assessing bullet stability required expensive computations with PRODAS or expensive testing at the ARL spark range. We also quantified the effects of stability on aerodynamic drag. The new stability formulas were made publicly available. The spreadsheet has been downloaded from this web site hundreds of times, and the formula has also been incorporated into the JBM and Patagonia Cold Bore ballistics programs.

We verified the proportionality of aerodynamic drag to atmospheric density to an accuracy of 1-2% for small arms projectiles.

We assessed a number of 7.62mm bullets for possible use as improved Air Force counter sniper loads.

We published a paper on using the sound of target impact for acoustic reconstructions of shooting events.

We published papers for use as primers for DoD personnel on the fundamentals of internal, external, and terminal ballistics.

We studied the effects of bore polishing on aerodynamic drag.

We published a paper on the history and evidence for hydrostatic shock in the journal Neurosurgery.

We quantified the relative armor penetration potential of bullets made of jacketed lead, brass, steel core, and copper.

We quantified the dependence of armor of the same cross section on the total mass of the armor sample.

We developed experimental models separating the role of the ceramic from the role of the glass/aramid backing in composite armors.

We published a paper showing that shooting a human-sized quadruped in the chest can cause damage to the blood brain barrier.

We tested a number of lead free bullets and primers for potential DoD use, demonstrating severe limitations in DDNP based primers and performance deficiencies in lead free bullets compared with jacketed lead bullets.

We studied lot to lot variations in Hodgdon Extreme powders which have been adopted or are under consideration for DoD use.

We developed new, less expensive and faster methods for quantifying rifle and pistol primer performance.

We developed new, faster, and less expensive methods to measure bullet friction in 5.56 mm NATO and used those methods to quantify friction effects of bullet coatings, bullet construction, primer type, and the presence of petroleum based water case sealants. These methods work at ballistic velocities; whereas, the older tests measured the force pushing bullets through barrels with a rod at several inches per second.

We provided valuable officer training in many areas of small arms ballistics.

Our ballistics work also led us into some valuable inventions of devices for the laboratory simulation of blast waves. We used the devices to study transmission of blast waves through candidate armor materials and to test a popular model for computing blast wave transmission through armor materials. These inventions have been adopted at several government labs, by contractors, and by medical research facilities including the Cleveland Clinic Foundation.

I personally made major contributions to all of these projects (as senior scientist/principal investigator) while performing all my other Air Force duties at a very high level. I won awards both for my research and for my teaching accomplishments. I was promoted twice in my first two years with the Air Force. The attached photo shows me receiving the research award from Lt. Gen. Mike Gould (left), superintendent of the U.S. Air Force Academy, and Maj. Gen. William McCasland (right), commander of the Air Force Research Laboratory. Clearly, the chain of command was more than satisfied that my salary was being put to good use.
 

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Thank you for all your efforts Michael. All work to improve our fighting forces and their safety is commendable to the highest degree. As you know my experiences with plastic tipped bullets support your formula.
 
MrMajestic said:
Thank you for all your efforts Michael. All work to improve our fighting forces and their safety is commendable to the highest degree. As you know my experiences with plastic tipped bullets support your formula.

We appreciate the feedback. The stability formula for plastic tipped bullets has been very well received with no reports of tumbling in regions where the new formula predicts a bullet will be stable, even in cases where the original (constant density) twist formula predicted instability.

Certainly, one can stay on the "safe side" by sticking with the manufacturer's recommended twist rate or use the original twist formula, which is overly conservative for plastic tipped and open tipped match bullets. But the improved formulas for these cases allow users to know they can do things like shoot a 69 grain match bullet from a 1 in 12" twist .223 Remington above certain elevations. Depending on your elevation and shooting conditions, you might not need a faster twist barrel to try a higher BC bullet. The formulas also tell you if you're going to cause stability problems by shooting reduced loads.

The spreadsheet implementing all three stability formulas (the original Miller stability formula, the improvement for plastic tipped bullets, and the improved formula for open tipped match bullets) can be found here:

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3834705.0
 
Did anyone else receive a notice of a background check after replying to this thread ? I find it a strange coincidence.
 
I've been ignored with thousands of page views and dozens of replies.

I've also received numerous private communications about findings, the importance of experimentally measured BCs, and future work.

Many readers have expressed interest and appreciation for insights gained in the discussions. My colleagues and I have also been challenged in our thinking and encouraged to design new experiments for addressing important fundamental questions.
 
I've been shooting Bergers and Hornadys at 1000 yards in 30 cal and 6mm and have never had a round be off more than a click or two from predicted as long as I chroni my loads and know the velocity. I think Berger is closer than Hornady but both are pretty good. I find Berger to have slightly better quality control (consistency) and have switched almost completely over, except the 6mm DTAC's I've been playing with. I believe Berger may be improving real BC estimates, but they were never very far off in my book.
 
Michael Sounds like you want Brian's job? With all your degrees I hope you have one that pays more than he gets! But answer me this one dumb Question how much does the BC. change if any or am I seeing just a pressure change. When you have a bullet from a new die compared to one in a worn out die, and how much is worn out, measurement wise? I seen in your first post about worn die's and I have Had that experience at long range and I could see the difference.

Joe salt
 
Joe Salt said:
Michael Sounds like you want Brian's job?

Why would I want Bryan's job?

I've already had to resign from several employers who wanted me to be dishonest to cover up exaggerations in their marketing specs.

For me it is a matter of fundamental scientific integrity to be clear about whether published numbers result from experiments or model predictions.

Joe Salt said:
With all your degrees I hope you have one that pays more than he gets!

I get paid to do fascinating and interesting work. It's fun. I have enough money to bless my children and keep gas in my 16 ft aluminum boat to go fishing.

Joe Salt said:
But answer me this one dumb Question how much does the BC. change if any or am I seeing just a pressure change. When you have a bullet from a new die compared to one in a worn out die, and how much is worn out, measurement wise? I seen in your first post about worn die's and I have Had that experience at long range and I could see the difference.
Joe salt

You really have to measure muzzle velocity to distinguish possible BC changes from possible muzzle velocity changes. We've seen BC improve from 0.417 to 0.479 with a change of forming dies.
 
I've already had to resign from several employers who wanted me to be dishonest to cover up exaggerations in their marketing specs.

It couldn't possibly have been due to your sparkling personality.

And for the record, the BC's of the flat based varmint bullets are based on estimates. We reduced the BC's on all those bullets by 5% because, on average, all of the previous predictions were on average 5% high when compared to measurements.

How you twisted this into 'inflated BC's is your special gift.
 
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