Which is more important?-- Load development

[JimmyO]

I'm trying to work up a load for 162 Amax in my 7-08, starting with RL15.

I loaded up 50 rounds in pairs of 2 @ .4 grn increments all .010 from the lands. then I wondered if l should do it this way to find the nodes and then search for the proper seating depth or the other way around...?

Any help would be appreciated....

Jimmy O

 

[jb1000br]

Jimmy - sounds like a good plan. have to establish a good pressure/charge first, then twiddle with the seating depth if needed.

JB

 

[Tommie]

The link below is from the RMVH website. Esentially the technique involves shooting one round from each load at the same target while keeping notes of each impact location. The theory claims that the loads close to the sweet spot will group closely. I've only tried this once but it did work. I'm not willing to go out on a limb to state that one successful experiment proves the theory but I will admit that the technique seems logical.

http://www.rmvh.com/LoadDev.htm

 

[Lane]

I'm trying to work up a load for 162 Amax in my 7-08, starting with RL15.

I loaded up 50 rounds in pairs of 2 @ .4 grn increments all .010 from the lands. then I wondered if l should do it this way to find the nodes and then search for the proper seating depth or the other way around...?

Any help would be appreciated....

Jimmy O

If you do not have a chronograph your application is moot. You do not say if you are working with a chronograph. You are going to be recording velocity and deviation and confirming the results. Change the components or the particular assembly of the components, bullet seating depth) you change the results. Identify the nodes first then the size of the nodes. Powder charge weight and bullet seating depth can be refined after you have identified the potential of the particular nodes in your rifle. Interesting method and subject keep in mind the 20/80 rule. Interesting process to play with. Best wishes Lane

 

[Bkluke]

just wondering what the nodes are? and the 80-20 rule is? and the best way to work on load is? i load 5 rounds in .3 grain increments and shoot 5 at one target to see how they group.

 

[JimmyO]

Thanks guys!

I've got a CED with 8' screens and will definitely record results.

Was only able to get off 4 shots, one of the scope rail bolts was too long.

So once I find the nodes with RL15 should I look for them @ similar velocity with my other powders or do I need to go through the whole .3 or .4 grn process again?

Can you explain the 20/80 rule?

Respectfully,
JimmyO

 

[jb1000br]

20/80 rule?????????

 

[mysticplayer]

I use the same testing method but at 200yds. I find the results better and I can identify stringing not always visible at 100yds.

The first go round is to find my max loads and some general info about the accuracy nodes. Then I retest in smaller powder increments to tune. I usually have my bullets just off the lands like you are. I rarely adjust seating depths as I find powder tuning to do the same thing and is not affected as much by barrel wear.

I am looking for how accuracy improves with increasing powder charge. The groups should shrink, as powder charge increases, then expand. That defines a node. At the upper node, pressure signs will also be prevelant.

I like to use the higher node as I feel powders burn better at the higher pressures.

I do shoot over a chronie but use it more to confirm max loading then for statistical analysis. Holes in paper mean more to me then number crunching using data by a machine whose error is larger then the numbers I am trying to track. If a chronie has less error,under outdoors conditions) then 0.5% of output reading, it might offer some statistical benefit. My Chronie is only rated with a 0.5% error so the error is larger then the numbers I am trying to crunch.

After testing at 200yds, I will go further out and test at 300yds or m. If a load works here, it will work as far as I can shoot.

Watch for stringing. That is what all that data crunching is trying to identify. I want nice rd clusters when shooting in calm conditions.

Jerry

 

[Lane]

Thanks guys!

I've got a CED with 8' screens and will definitely record results.

Was only able to get off 4 shots, one of the scope rail bolts was too long.

So once I find the nodes with RL15 should I look for them @ similar velocity with my other powders or do I need to go through the whole .3 or .4 grn process again?

Can you explain the 20/80 rule?

Respectfully,
JimmyO

The "20/80 rule" has been expressed in many ways. The last 20% of any potential accuracy that has the possibility to be developed will require 80% of your time, effort and money. I assuming you are trying to do your load development by use of the ladder test. Incremental load development,ladder test) has many factors that will determine valid acceptable results. Barrel vibration to a large degree is affected by bullet weight. When you have identified a harmonic node with a specific,bullet weight) you have insight into the correct velocity other bullets of the,same weight) need to be loaded to to stay with in a particular harmonic node. In one case you will be using your chronograph to identify the velocity required to push a bullet of specific weight into the particular harmonic node of you rifle. The,ladder test) is the method to prove out your results. Sorry to be so long winded. I'm assuming you are approaching your load development by means of the ladder test. Best wishes Lane

 

[Lane]

just wondering what the nodes are? and the 80-20 rule is? and the best way to work on load is? i load 5 rounds in .3 grain increments and shoot 5 at one target to see how they group.

I agree with the theory that there is more then one way to do something right and more then one way to do something wrong. You are using the classic way to develop loads and there is nothing wrong about that. Some use the incremental load development method. Some people think that the best accuracy will be produced when the muzzle is at static state. Some people think the best accuracy will be produced when the muzzle is at it's maximum point of movement from it's static state. Potential nodes are points of maximum barrel movement from the static state. Bullet exit at the muzzle is in time with maximum point of barrel movement. Velocity variations of the specific load with a specific bullet weight change muzzle movement less when at this point of maximum barrel movement. The movement at the muzzle has to slow, stop, the return. Understanding harmonic nodes means different things to different people in my opinion. Hope I have helped in some way with my understanding of harmonic nodes. When I use the Ladder test I need a ladder to measure shot to shot dispesion, I sometimes think I will never find a harmonic node! Best wishes Lane

 

[Hipshot]

My sequence for load development is to seat bullets off the lands and work up loads looking for the best 'decent' group, then play with seating depth,which sometimes requires a small bit of fiddling with powder weight).

With all the available powder choices I try to select no more than three,usually two) for the cartridge and bullet weight I'm working up. I want to achieve a 90%+ case capacity in the end. Loading manuals and interior balistic software, such as QuickLoad, are analyzed before making my selection. Also, asking what others are using and paying attention to loads developed by folks on this forum will save a lot of time, effort and money.

 

[Lane]

I'm trying to work up a load for 162 Amax in my 7-08, starting with RL15.

I loaded up 50 rounds in pairs of 2 @ .4 grn increments all .010 from the lands. then I wondered if l should do it this way to find the nodes and then search for the proper seating depth or the other way around...?

Any help would be appreciated....

Jimmy O

JimmyO, Original question in my opinion points out a number of issues with the classic way of load development or variations of that method. 50 rounds in pairs of two. The amount of components primer, powder, cases, bullets used up in load development. Identify harmonic nodes. The issues of changing components, or adjusting the components through cartridge case adjustments and bullet seating depths. I assume we would all in theory agree a accurate load can only be developed through adjustments, variations, procedures with the components. Incremental load development can take all of the issues into account with 20 rounds in the first stage. Incremental load development also accounts for the most important issue of changing one procedure or component at a time. Basically we are all trying in one way or another to find the best procedures to develop our loads. Regardless of how we do something we have to be able to interpret the results. Personal point of view and I do not want anything I have written to be interpreted in a disrespectful way. I will take issue with case adjustments and re-size choices, bullet seating adjustments up after I have found a accurate start load. Find a charge weight, bullet weight and build a correct dimensioned case around the particular chamber first. this issue first. Why put the cart before the horse.Best wishes to all of you. Lane

 

[StephenPerry]

Jimmy
My advice read Hipshots Post 10 times copy it on a piece of paper sell the chronograph then hit the Range. Go to the Range as I am going to do in 1/2 hr and burn 200 yd targets with your loads. I can guarantee you that if you follow Hipshots advice you will get the best out of your barrel in 3 or 4 groups. Stop there have a short lunch and try the afternoon conditions. Never shoot only the morning shoot all day if you can.

Srephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[blackbrush]

Greetings All! I am a total neophite regarding handloads and I am trying to get up to speed to practice some tried and true methods versus the "I don't know why, that's just the way I was taught..." type scenario.

In this particular "thread",again I am new to reloading AND Forums) there appears to be a simple line of questioning and a reasonable quality/amount of suggestion. What did this individual try? What were the results? Was there a sequence of procedures or techniques that were best performed in another sequence?

Perhaps I am too green to be on a forum like this; similar to a third-grader sitting in a high school class. Would a follow-up post as to the results give this forum thread more completeness?

Wally

 

[StephenPerry]

Jimmie
I think all your steps will get you with your best load. I feel work with one item at a time. Start with powder this is where your most volatile changes can appear. I don't believe in nodes because they can lull into thinking you can shoot through conditions. I believe in powder spikes where the next powder change up will go ballistic on pressure and that's where you stop. Back up one powder step and start on working on seating depth. Check in the lands and off the lands, off the lands will show up quickly if that's the way to go. Start with touching lands watching for pressure signs now that you are up near max pressure. What I look for is a load that gives me 1/2 bullet hole vertical at 100 and a bullet hole vertical at 200. This give you a chance at a .1 MOA at either yardage. Run the seating depth up the ladder till you get to full jam, or off the lands no more than .040.
What's important in Load Development is that the load you come up with will shoot well day after day. My bud Gene has shot the same load for the last 2 1/2 yrs. He won the last 2 SOY at San Gabriel with a .22xx agg and a .21xx agg. Can't do much better than that.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[StephenPerry]

Lynn
I am not as well read as some and don't know those systems by name. This is a great Thread in that it gives a guy a couple methods of Load development that will end at the same place, a great load. A lot of guys have great guns they just need some ideas.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[JimmyO]

Hey guys,

Thanks to all for the great responses. I can't wait to go test some loads. Went the other day but had some bedding issues. I will post photos.

Once again, thank you very much.

 

[BountyHunter]

Jimmy

why shoot 5 shot groups to start? If they do not group in two shots, then it will not group in 5.

Here is a thread that walks you thru a couple techniques but outlines the basic steps to take no matter how you do it.

http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Handloading&Number=153124&Searchpage=1&Main=153124&Words=tuning+BountyHunter&topic=&Search=true#Post153124

BH

 

[chris308]

Something that saved me some time and headaches was to purchase an el-cheepo lee press and mount it to a board to be portable. After you decide on a powder charge like mentioned above,load 60-70,or more?) rounds with the length about .060 LONG.
take the long rounds to the range with the press with your seater die. Mount it to your bench and start about .020 jammed and work backward about .005-.010 at a time.with 60-70 rounds you can repeat your tests if necessary.I can dial a load this way if i work up powder weight in day 1 and do the length tinkering in day 2....hope that helped out...chris

 

[StephenPerry]

Johnny
You can sit the rest of this Thread out. You got enough to keep busy. This could go on all Summer. What goes on from here will be advanced Loading Develpoment which is interesting to most of these Posters.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR