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Which direction to go?

I think I am ready to move away from my standard Hornady Custom FL sizing die and go towards something like a bushing die and/or mandrel die. Something that lets me control neck tension.

I'm just not 100% clear on which/what way to go. I would use a FL bushing die to size the case then run a mandrel die after that to set the neck tension?
If I get the correct size bushing will I still need to use a mandrel or will using a FL bushing die as the only sizing step work ok (assuming the bushing allows for the correct neck tension).

Which dies should I look at brand wise? I don't need anything crazy, just a hobby shooter.

Anything else I should consider when I buy my next set of dies? I should also mention I mostly shoot 223 in a long throat bolt gun but also have some other stuff. 308 and 6.5 creed plus some gas guns.

Any input is welcome and thanks for the help.
 
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I think I am ready to move away from my standard Hornady Custom FL sizing die and go towards something like a bushing die and/or mandrel die.
I'm just not 100% clear on which/what way to go. I would use a FL bushing die to size the case then run a mandrel die after that to set the neck tension?
If I get the correct size bushing will I still need to use a mandrel or will using a FL bushing die as the only sizing step work ok (assuming the bushing allows for the correct neck tension).

Which dies should I look at brand wise? I don't need anything crazy, just a hobby shooter.

Anything else I should consider when I buy my next set of dies? I should also mention I mostly shoot 223 in a long throat bolt gun but also have some other stuff. 308 and 6.5 creed plus some gas guns.

Any input is welcome and thanks for the help.
JL -

Howdy !

Hornady makes a great shoulder bump / bushing NS die.

I myself have only been doing shoulder bump and (bushing ) neck sizing for cartridges
I use in my single shot Wichita WBR1375 bolt gun. It is a dual-role' varmint/target rifle.

Guess I haven't been pushing my wildcat loads too hard, as I have not had to FL size any of my rifle brass for more than 40yr. This includes ( in my circumstance ) thousands of my wildcat cartridges, which didn't even require FL sizing as part of their initial case forming process.

I use a LEE Collet NS die for my .35 Remington loads shot in my Marlin M-336 XLR.
Here again, my cartridges / my loads / in my rifle, have not required FL sizing.
I do not have any " gas guns ".

The Hornady die mentioned above works great ( IMHO ). So does the Lee collet NS die, for the intended application.


With regards,
357Mag

Wi
 
I am the last guy to discourage someone from spending their money, but the first question that comes to mind when I see this is "Why?" What are you trying to gain? Based on your post, I am assuming that you are not shooting BR, correct?
 
I use Redding Type S Match Die sets. If I need an additional sizing die, I will just buy one separately - no need for multiple seating dies for the same cartridge.

Initially, I used the Type S bushing dies as the sole sizing step in my brass prep method with un-turned necks. I remove the decapping pin and expander ball from all my resizing dies prior to use. I found that one bushing size seemed to work pretty well with a given brand of brass, even across several different Lot #s. For example, I used a 0.248" bushing with Lapua .223 Rem brass and a 0.336" bushing with Lapua Palma .308 Win brass, both of which yielded very close to .002" neck tension (interference fit) in my hands. This approach worked quite well for me for a number of years.

Eventually, I came to the conclusion that my approach left something to be desired in terms of generating consistent neck tension, likely because I do not turn necks. This notion was supported by the observation that a small percentage of cases in every prep would exhibit noticeably different seating force than the majority when seating bullets. For that reason, I decided to add a mandrel sizing step as the 2nd (final) sizing step in the process. The premise is that sizing necks from the inside with a mandrel tends to transfer neck wall thickness variance/inconsistency to the outside, whereas a bushing die will move such inconsistency to the inside.

During testing with various bushing and mandrel diameters, I found that using a mandrel diameter of ~.0015" under bullet diameter will generate a neck tension of pretty close to .002". That is because spring-back works in the opposite direction when opening necks up with a mandrel than it does when squeezing them down with a bushing. With a bushing die, a neck opens up slightly (~.0005") when it is withdrawn from the die. In contrast, a neck will close up slightly (~.0005") when the mandrel is withdrawn. However, it is necessary to use a bushing of ~.001" or so smaller than would be used if the bushing die were to be the sole sizing step when a subsequent mandrel sizing step is incorporated into the process. This is so that the mandrel will actually do work on all the case necks, something that may not be very consistent if the necks are too close in size to what the mandrel will leave them. Thus, I would use a 0.247" bushing with Lapua .223 Rem brass and a 0.335" bushing with Lapua Palma .308 Win brass (unturned necks) prior to sizing with a mandrel (0.2225" or 0.3065", respectively).

It is also worth noting that bushings do not always generate a final neck diameter that exactly matches the value stamped on them. It is a good idea to have a few different sizes in .001" increments within a useful range for a given cartridge/caliber. Likewise, having a few different mandrel sizes can be useful. I use the 21st Century mandrels, which come in .0005" increments.

Whether one chooses to use a bushing die only, or a bushing die followed by a mandrel can only be decided by the end user, and their intended level of precision should be part of that decision-making process. Adding the mandrel step effectively doubles the amount of work/time required to resize the brass, so the use of a mandrel may not be desirable in situations where any small improvement in precision may not be noticeable. I believe that switching to a bushing die followed by a mandrel has led to a slight but noticeable improvement in neck tension consistency, which in turn translates to slightly better ES/SD values. The difference is not huge, but it is not zero, either. IMO - even little improvements in consistency can potentially help one improve their scores in F-Class matches, even though it can be very difficult if not impossible to statistically document such improvements. For that reason, I believe that answering the "bushing die only versus bushing die plus mandrel" question may need done primarily on faith, rather than a statistical guarantee, which may not be forthcoming.
 
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Redding FL bushing dies work great in all 8 cartridges I load for from .22 up to 30 cal. Bushings I use are both Redding and RCBS. The 21st Century mandrels help set final neck tension, and smooth out inconsistencies. I have heard of a few top tier shooters that only use the bushing die with no mandrel but I think that may be reserved for a very specific type of shooting, without getting into a lengthy explanation. The mandrel step never hurts your process but there are situations where it isn't needed. Fl Bushing dies by Redding are very well made and are simplistic, affordable and available, which is important if you want to get going. Best piece of advice I can give is measure the neck on a loaded round and subtract .003. That is your bushing size to order. Then take your caliber (example .308) Subtract .002 or (.306) and that is your mandrel size to order. This recipe has always given me good tension. This is important as consistent neck tension revolves around how the brass "yields". Squeeze the brass too much or too little and there will be variation in tension. Most reloaders put neck tension right up there with a good barrel and FL Bushing dies set properly to bump .001-.002 thou will be 85% of your brass prep.
 
My main rifle currently is good for 1/2 MOA, with several bullets and powders. Just trying to shrink it down some more. I do notice that there is inconsistent force required to seat bullets and as far as I can tell it is random. I believe with the standard expander ball in the hornady I have a lot of neck tension, somewhere in the neighborhood of .007" but if that is a wrong or impossible measurement I may need to check again.

What considerations are there when decided on which brand of bushing die?
 
My main rifle currently is good for 1/2 MOA, with several bullets and powders. Just trying to shrink it down some more. I do notice that there is inconsistent force required to seat bullets and as far as I can tell it is random. I believe with the standard expander ball in the hornady I have a lot of neck tension, somewhere in the neighborhood of .007" but if that is a wrong or impossible measurement I may need to check again.

What considerations are there when decided on which brand of bushing die?

If your current rifle is 1/2MOA, I would suggest that you are not going to see a statically significant difference in group sizes by switching to a bushing die. In order to get the truly tiny groups (2s and 3s) consistently, the rifle and the shooter are the biggest variables.

Also, you mentioned inconsistencies in bullet seating force required. Are you annealing your brass after each firing? If not, then I would suggest spending money on a good annealing machine rather than bushing dies (Or both)
 
I use Redding F/L Type S bushing and Wilson F/L bushing dies and a mandrel .002 under bullet diameter. Normally, the bushing size will be .001 under the mandrel size. This seems to work the brass less.
 
If you're getting a 1/2 moa with your current reloading process, loads, and rifle I'd be reluctant to change anything.

If your concern is the expander button there are a couple of remedies that I've used which work quite well and don't involve complicating the reloading process.

You can polish the expander button with very fine grit emery cloth to produce a 'glass like' smooth surface that significantly reduces drag on the case neck.

You can purchase another expander assembly and carefully reduce the diameter with coarser emery cloth. I have 4 expander assemblies for my 223 Rem's sized in .001" increments, each color coded. I record the expander color on the cartridge box for a group of cases dedicated to a specific rifle. It works quite well controlling neck tension perhaps not better than bushing dies but good enough for me. Most of all it's relatively inexpensive and simple. I like simple. ;)
 
I think I am ready to move away from my standard Hornady Custom FL sizing die and go towards something like a bushing die and/or mandrel die. Something that lets me control neck tension.

I'm just not 100% clear on which/what way to go. I would use a FL bushing die to size the case then run a mandrel die after that to set the neck tension?
This is the combination that I use for consistent neck tension. The bushing die with the expander ball removed, doesn't overwork the the neck and the mandrel tweaks the neck tension from there. Adding the mandrel step not only reduced my group size, but eliminated 90% of fliers. I need to work on that other 10%.
 
If your current rifle is 1/2MOA, I would suggest that you are not going to see a statically significant difference in group sizes by switching to a bushing die. In order to get the truly tiny groups (2s and 3s) consistently, the rifle and the shooter are the biggest variables.

Also, you mentioned inconsistencies in bullet seating force required. Are you annealing your brass after each firing? If not, then I would suggest spending money on a good annealing machine rather than bushing dies (Or both)
I have recently started to anneal with a power screwdriver, appropriate deep well socket and a torch. Its a little painstaking but it works. Ive been looking at the Ugly Annealer. I also have my eye on a Henderson trimmer, really am not a fan of trimming, champfering and deburring by hand.

My main thought was that if I reduced the neck tension, my groups may shrink if I get it dialed in and the necks of my cases would last longer being worked less. Not sure if it is significant or not because I run relatively warm loads and am finding my cases lasting 4-5 loads before I chuck them.
 
So far I have only tried them on one caliber, and picked them up last fall. With only a few loads to compare, both me and my buddy noticed less run out.

They are not an automatic swap with other bushings though in relation to NT. We both noticed an estimated .0005 worth of neck tension difference based on seating pressure using the 21st Cent. hydro-seater.

I'll be more familiar with them after a full season. But we like them and I have no reason to not use them.
Thank you. I ordered a couple of them yesterday for my ppc. Do I need to go smaller or larger to get the same neck tension? Roger Schuppe
 
I've found the brass goes into the SAC bushings with less force. And that correlates with approximately 3-5psi less to seat them.

I have used and still have Wilson and Redding, steel and titanium, bushings. I have had no issues with them. I would not say the SAC bushings will add any points to the target. I just like the feel and finish with using them and there was less run out noticed when we checked them initially.
Thank you.
 
And you need to anneal after every firing to keep neck tension in check...just my 2c
I use Redding bushing dies and a mandrel and my rounds seat like butter....well perhaps not quite butter,
but pretty smooth none the less...
 

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