Which competition seating die?

[IllKeepMine]

A while back, I purchased an RCBS competition seating die. I started ladder testing and group testing, in hopes of achieving the best load for my Rem 5R .308. I was able to shoot a 5 shot group at ~.5 MOA at 300 yards. We will see if that is consistent.

Last week I purchased a concentricity gauge from 21st Century. When I started checking cartridges I had built for my first F/TR Class club shoot, I was disappointed. Almost every cartridge had a bullet runout around from .02 to .03. Yes, that's 20 to 30 thousands. I could see the tip of the bullet wobble as it was rotated. So, It looks like my competition seating die isn't so competitive.

I have heard about Redding type S, Forster and Whidden dies.

How do you like your seating die and what is your normal bullet runout?

 

[treeman]

are your cases concentric before you seat the bullets? if so is your expander ball hard to pull through a sized case? if you taper and polish your expander it may help your case concentricity. another thing that can help is to lap the inside of the neck of the sizing die so it doesn't size the neck so much

 

[Barlow]

As treeman pointed out, there can be many issues that lead to runout, but to answer your question, I like the Forster Mic seater. Barlow

 

[dm.oakes]

I saw a noticeable decrease in my runout when I switched to all Forster dies. I went from start to finish in my reloading processing, I found that some of my brass didn't have even necks. Fixed that problem and my bullet runout was also reduced.

 

[fdshuster]

"Almost every cartridge had a bullet runout around from .02 to .03. Yes, that's 20 to 30 thousands."

I hope that's a typo. "30 thousands" is just short of 1/32". If you meant two to three thousands that's common depending on the quality of your brass, neck wall thickness concintricity, method of sizing the brass, and yes, maybe the seater die.

Borrow a seater from someone & use it to compare results, with the same brass that shows the runout. If you are getting runout on all the brass (like a box of 20), then that may be the seater. If it's only a few out of 20, it could just be a few pieces of sub-par brass.

I do use & prefer the Forster Micrometer Benchrest Seaters. Also use the Wilsons with an arbor press. Both systems work equally well. With Lapua 6BR & 6ppc (220 Russian), and checking for runout using the Sinclair gauge, a box of 20 may have 1 or 2 pieces that are .003"/.004", and they are used for basic sight-in, first round foulers & short range only. My maximum standard for match use is .002", but those with zero and .001" will be kept for distances of 300 and beyond. I've found that unless the R/O is radical, it makes little difference at the shorter distances of 1 & 200.

Some brass is below standards from the time the case was drawn & they will never straighten out with firing. The brass that you say has runout has been fired at least 1 or 2 times, right?

It can also help if you seat the bullet(s) incrementaly: seat about 1/3, rotate case about 1/3, seat 1/3, rotate, etc. 'til fully seated.

 

[dickn52]

I use a Redding Comp Seater for .308 and Forster Seating Die for .223. They seem to both work great. My concentricty gage show less than .001 per when I do spot check them. I did use some 0000 wool on the Redding when I first got it as it kept ringing the bullet slightly.

 

[jonbearman]

I use rcbs comp seaters all the time for certain calibers and have no problems. I will bet that it is your expander ball doing the damage.Maybe it is time for a bushing die.Std dies tend to oversize the case so the ammo if loaded to spec will fit the gun easily. Only problem is it is working the neck alot and when the expander trys to pull back through it will distort your barss for sure. Do you lube your necks internally while using the expander? If not,that may be part of the problem.Before you blame the seater ,size a case and see how straight the neck is on your concentricity gage.

 

[M-61]

.002 to .003?

 

[Barlow]

Illkeepmine, Where are you measuring your runout? Barlow

 

[Phil3]

.020 to .030 is absolutely huge. Is that at the neck, bullet ogive, tip, or...? I would have to say something is seriously amiss with equipment or use (sorry). I have both the Redding and Forster seating die, both with micrometer tops, and both perform well. The Forster is better in my opinion because the diameter is larger making the hash marks easier to see. On top of that, the Redding moves .050" per turn, while the Forster is half that, at .025". This means the hash marks on the Forster are much easier to see since they are spaced much further apart. The Forster is much cheaper as well. No brainer for me.

I would check your measuring tool or technique, on the bullet and the neck. Is the neck that far out or is the bullet crooked in a straight neck? I use FL dies, and while the Forster does better with regards to neck runout in my opinion, the Redding would never generate anything near .020" runout.

Phil

 

[kelbro]

I have used Redding, Forster, and RCBS comp seaters. All of them work well. I doubt that the problem is in the seater die. If you are shooting VLDs, the seater plug may need some tweaking.

 

[Max]

I have the Redding and Forster competition seaters as well as the Wilson. In my opinion, the Redding is fitted to tighter tolerances than the Forster particularly the sliding sleeve to body and the seating stem to body. The Wilson micrometer seating die must be used with an arbor press but is in my opinion better than the others because you can feel the seating pressure and actually measure it with the new K&M arbor press. It would be perfect if the body was a tighter fit to the brass but that would probably require using the same chamber reamer that was used on the gun.

 

[nosualc]

20-30 tho, if that's correct, is really really bad.

I'd want to be sure and find out where your runout is introduced. I'm dubious that it's the seater.

1) Check runout on the necks of clean, fired cases (before sizing). Runout should be very very low at this point (eg < .002") . If not, you have a crooked chamber.

2) Check runout after you size them. IMO, this is where most runout is introduced. If this is a problem, try another sizing die, and check your press/shell holder for obvious mechanical issues.

3) Finally, check runout on the seated bullets.

-nosualc

 

[IllKeepMine]

I read the responses. There are a lot of valid points here. I should have stated the I was reloading new Lapua brass. I plan to make measurements from beginning to end of the reloading cycle for concentricity. Will update with results. I wish I had a video camera, I would video to whole session. My cell phone is cheap and it only takes stills.

 

[Phil3]

I have the Redding and Forster competition seaters as well as the Wilson. In my opinion, the Redding is fitted to tighter tolerances than the Forster particularly the sliding sleeve to body and the seating stem to body.

I have found exactly the same thing, with the Forster feeling relatively sloppy in fit. It is a VERY obvious difference. But, the Forster performs just as well if not better than the Redding when it comes to bullet runout. I have no idea why, but need to do more testing. I have not sold the Redding seater yet, because it just seems like its tighter fit of components "should" deliver superior results, but so far, it has not. ???

Phil

 

[MarkS]

IllKeepMine,

For what you will pay for Comp seater you can get a arbor press and a Wilson seater. I use Redding S F/L for sizing every firing and Wilson seater. It run no more than 0.002" with a lot in the 0.0005"

Mark Schronce

 

[fdshuster]

IllKeepMine: "I should have stated that I was using new Lapua brass". As I said in my post, when I asked the question. That says it all for me. Nothing wrong with your seater die, nothing wrong with your loading procedures.

The runout is there simply because it has never been fired in your chamber. It needs to be fired 1 or 2 times to straighten. There may still be a very few that will never straighten, no matter how many times they are fired, but that is because they are substandard from the time they were formed.

 

[IllKeepMine]

I took the fired brass from last weekend at measured the concentricity of the neck. I got consistent measurements of .0010 to .0015. So the brass is ok. More measurements to come, probably after the weekend.