very poor runout with Wilson arbor die

[whysman]

I have a K&M press and am using a Wilson seating die with the micrometer top. I am seating the very long Berger 230gr hybrid target bullet and because of this I have the VLD type stem for my Wilson.

I am seeing no better than .002 runout measuring with the Sinclair concentricity tool and the majority are .005 and some as high as .008!

I had been using a Forester Co-Ax press with a Forester seating die and seeing decent results but hearing how great the Wilson arbor die was and wanting a better in-house option I tried the arbor press/Wilson die combo.

Realizing that there are many factors in reducing runout, I wanted to see if anyone had any basic insight. I am using unturned fired Lapua brass and when measuring just neck runout I am always at .001 or so. I chamfer and deburr cases as well.

Thoughts?

 

[ThunderDownUnder]

Might help if you tell us what cartridge case your using? I see its lapua brass so I'm guessing 308W or 30-06? The 300WM and 300WSM dont have lapua brass available for them.

Ian

 

[22BRGUY]

How are you resizing the bodies or are you bumping/sizing the bodies at all? When you chamfer are you using a VLD chamfer or regular? If using just a regular chamfer, it will leave sharp edges inside the case mouth that can catch the bullet jacket and cause runout. I always jam the case mouth into either 0000 steel wool or a green Scotchbrite pad and twist back and forth several times to remove any sharp edges after chamfering.

 

[fdshuster]

whysman: Question? Is your runout after loading new, virgin brass only, for the first time, or does it continue thru multiple firings?

I too can see unacceptable runout, but after firing, the majority of times it straightens out perfectly.

 

[whysman]

I am loading .308 and so far I have just loaded fired brass using this die. I full length resize using a redding die and my chamfer using a standard bit, so I can see that as an area for correction.

Thanks for the responses

 

[sparky123321]

I'd try marking your bass and the die body. Line up the two marks each time you seat a bullet and then check to see if the high and low spot occur in the same general location in relationship to the mark you placed on your brass. You might have a slightly misaligned seating die.

The only reason I suggest this is because I recently experienced this with a new LE Wilson .243 seating die. I've never had this problem with any of the other numerous Wilson seating dies I've used over the years. I never went so far as to check for a misaligned die for this ammo because it's just for my .243 AR10. It was going to be my next step though before deciding to just switch over to my Forster press and seat die. The Forster press and seating die actually produced better results than the LE Wilson seating die did. I'm a LE Wilson fan through and through, so I was very surprised and some what disappointed.

In defense of the LE Wilson seating die I must say that the brass was FL resized using a small base die. My best results have always been achieved with fired neck sized only brass. Makes sense that the tighter the brass is in the die the less play there will be to allow for runout. Just my two cents.

 

[Shynloco]

I am loading .308 and so far I have just loaded fired brass using this die. I full length resize using a redding die and my chamfer using a standard bit, so I can see that as an area for correction.

Thanks for the responses

Whysman,
Have you considered adding the step of using an Expander Die with a Sinclair E-30 Oversized Mandrel to get close to the desire .001 - .002 neck tension, not to mention the mandrel will straighten out any deviations in the neck (assuming they are all equal in terms of thickness)? Not sure in your explanation if you are turning necks ever so slightly to removing inconsistencies in thickness. These are a few of the steps I use when prepping my Lapua or Lake City Match casings in my Benchrest .308 and I hardly ever get more of of a runout of .001 - .002. And for those few that I do, they're just brass that I set aside and use for foulers because those few pieces have issues that cannot be corrected due to base issues when made. BTW, I'm also using a Redding Die (as I do in all my calibers) when FL resizing; Wilson Seater Dies for bullet seating and a Sinclair (same thing as the Wilson) Arbor Press to seat bullets, except I'm seating 168 gr HPBT's.

 

[aj300mag]

I have a K&M press and am using a Wilson seating die with the micrometer top. I am seating the very long Berger 230gr hybrid target bullet and because of this I have the VLD type stem for my Wilson.

I am seeing no better than .002 runout measuring with the Sinclair concentricity tool and the majority are .005 and some as high as .008!

I had been using a Forester Co-Ax press with a Forester seating die and seeing decent results but hearing how great the Wilson arbor die was and wanting a better in-house option I tried the arbor press/Wilson die combo.

Realizing that there are many factors in reducing runout, I wanted to see if anyone had any basic insight. I am using unturned fired Lapua brass and when measuring just neck runout I am always at .001 or so. I chamfer and deburr cases as well.

Thoughts?

OK... Understand that this IS classified and after I tell ya I'm gonna have to,

Place the bullet on the top of the neck, wiggle it around a little while pushing it down. You'll feel it kind of lock into place. Place the seater die over the round, put a little pressure on the top punch (by hand) while lowering the die over the round. Lift up and then tap the top punch down onto the bullet lightly a couple of times. Seat the bullet.

If you just set the bullet on top of the neck and then seat the bullet you'll get run-out...

 

[VaniB]

The Wilson seaters can be very challenging to use if you are seating the bullets directly onto powder. (ie; compressed loads).

In these instances I revert to my favorite standard 7/8 screw-in seater dies, and rotate the case slowly over a series of short downward strokes with the press. ( In other words, when using screw-in dies don't completely seat the bullet with one ram stroke) I have this process down to a science with magic-marked case holders and marked cases. PM me if you want complete details of how to best do this.


I use two Sinclair concentricity gages for reloading; One to check a sized case, and the other to check the completed cartridge. I have proved to myself that readings in the 2000th's and 3,000ths (and often 4,000thss too) concentricity shoot every bit as good as perfect cases that read Zero concentricity. You do realize ( do you?) that the Sinclair gage doubles the readings via the eliptical case rotation....so that a reading of 2,000ths on the gage is actually off by only 1,000ths.

 

[LongRanger]

Check your seating stem on your micro top by inserting into die body and "wiggling" to determine if there is any slop of the stem in the die bore. If there is, and you are tightening the micro's set screw, you will be canting the stem to one side=another possible cause of runout.

I leave the set screw loose.

Frank B.

 

[johara1]

What goes in with runout comes out with runout........ It's your sizing die....... or your chamber. check for runout at each stage.... I have up on it a long time ago doesn't mean a anything when you put it in a chamber with a a free bore diameter a couple of tens over bullet diameter. I will say if you can get it down under .001 it can't hurt. Just think if you size your case .001 at the shoulder and .0005 at the base and the free bore diameter is .0002 over the bullet diameter, what are you worried about? It has to line up......... jim

 

[swed6.5]

I agree with johara1, what goes in with runout can come out that way, try to mark your cases before firing checkthem again after you might find a chamber cut out of round.

 

[jlow]

One question I have is if you are using Bergers and I imagine seating long, if you have too much neck tension, this could make things difficult – what is your neck tension?

 

[Mega]

Before blaming any Die I would take a sample run of Fired Cases, say 10 and measure the runout just below the shoulder on the body then at midway down the neck. Resize as you have been and measure again then do the same measurements after seating a bullet and check the previous two measuring points and the bullet runout.

I would tend to think perhaps the FLS may be the issue.

I don't use a FLS Die other than with brand new cases at the beginning of my initial case prep, thereafter I use a Body Die and Neck Bushing Die (Wilson). I also use the K&M Control Length VLD Tapered Reamer on all cases irrespective if bullet type I'm using from Flat Base to VLD's. Other than the initial sizing I do not use any die with an expander button.

Of the half dozen different calibres I reload my runout is generally 0.001" or less. The odd case maybe 0.002" or more and I pull that one out of the batch and check again after it has been fired again then most times it comes good.

Some of my cases are for tight neck chambers and neck turned but also some are no turn and I take a very very light cut of neck turning to even out the neck thickness and tension but also a couple of calibres the case necks are not touched at all and I don't have runout problems. I use Wilson Seating Dies both Standard and Micrometer Types with a K&M Arbor Press.

Just my thoughts which may or may not help with your issue.

 

[whysman]

Wow! Thanks for all the insight guys... this is why you gotta love this site. I definitely have a lot to think about, but some of your comments/questions stick out...

One question I have is if you are using Bergers and I imagine seating long, if you have too much neck tension, this could make things difficult – what is your neck tension?

A loaded round is .338 and my Redding full length sizing die is the bushing type and currently I am using the .336 so I would think that would be appropriate, but I could always try the .337

Mega, jlow, swed6.5, johara1... great points about looking elsewhere in the process to find the culprit. The reason I gravitated toward the Wilson die was that my runout seems to be more in the .001-.003 range 98% of the time with the Forester Co-Ax with all other things being equal in the reloading process. It may be linked to what VaniB stated though...

The Wilson seaters can be very challenging to use if you are seating the bullets directly onto powder. (ie; compressed loads).

This is exactly my situation. The load I am running is slightly compressed. At the bottom of the stroke the "crunch" sound is easily recognized. When I load with my Co-Ax I do the same rotating the case thing. I will say that I just rotate them twice and not in a very scientific way with marking the holder and cases, but that is a great idea.

LongRanger: excellent observation. I do crank down on that set screw in the interest of making sure my setting is saved but never giving a thought to that messing up my runout. Thanks for the tip!

aj300mag: I will definitely give that a try because what I do now is place the round on the Wilson base (with the hole), place the round in the neck and eyeball it to see that it is straight, then set the die on top. When eyeballing 'em, I am sure I have thought they were straight when they probably were not.

Shynloco: I am not turning necks on this brass and don't use a die with an expander ball. I think my necks are in good form as they usually meter out with .001 runout with an occasional .0015-.002. I do use an expander when I need to, but it isn't in my normal process. I may need to re-think that.

sparky123321: thanks for that observation. I am going to try that to see if there indeed is something off with the die.


Thanks to you all... this is exactly why I am such a big fan of this site. I hope someday down the road I can share some insight that you might find useful.

 

[johara1]

Total run out is twice what you have,.002 is .001. If you don't turn necks don't expect it to be much better than .001 and if it's a factory barrel don't worry about it ...... jim

 

[Martin52]

This is exactly my situation. The load I am running is slightly compressed. At the bottom of the stroke the "crunch" sound is easily recognized. When I load with my Co-Ax I do the same rotating the case thing. I will say that I just rotate them twice and not in a very scientific way with marking the holder and cases, but that is a great idea.

Tried a long drop powder funnel such as Forster sell ? - might assist consolidate these compressed loads and reduce the crunch.

M

 

[jlow]

I can understand why you might want to use more neck tension considering that you have a compressed load.

The question is when you used to seat with the Co-Ax with decent results, were the loads the same i.e. compressed, seating long with Berger. The fact that you have a combination of a compressed load and seating long could be your problem, but to compare back to the Co-Ax, the loads have to be the same for it to be comparing apples to apples.

I don't have any experience doing this but I am thinking that by seating long, the amount of bearing surface in contact with the neck will be reduced and when you add the compression, you are more likely going to have runout problems.