I've been using a Lee Collet die and body die for my .308 reloading and while I'm getting really low runnout numbers I can't seem to get as consistent neck tension as I would like. I anneal, trim, measure... after every firing but it seems 1 out of 4 or 5 cases a bullet takes a noticeable amount less force to seat. I would like to try a FL bushing neck die and am not sure if their is much diffference betweem, Redding, Rcbs, or Whidden. My necks are turned and a loaded rounds mesure .335 and my chamber is a 95 palma with a .339 neck, I can't seem to find the coated bushings anywhere in .334, .333, or .332. Which bushing dies do yall reccommend and where can a fella get bushings these days? Also, do you think this type die will help with the neck tension consistency over what I'm using now?
Which Bushing neck die to get
- Thread starter jsthntn247
- Start date
In my experience, I've done virtually the same thing you have described. I went the route of a Wilson neck sizing and bullet seater setup and did notice better results on paper with some experimentation of different size bushings and the run out was as at least as good as with the collet die setup. It of course requires going with an arbor press but I was able to pick up a nice used one and as for the bushings, they are around even on ebay if you search for redding bushing. Also, you may want to try the gunstop in Minnesota at 800 645 7644 or Russ Haydon Shooters Supply.
You could also try using powdered graphite inside your case necks for a possibly better consistent seating pressure.
Best Wishes
You could also try using powdered graphite inside your case necks for a possibly better consistent seating pressure.
Best Wishes
I personally like dies that use the same bushings as Wilson or Redding. I think RCBS and Hornady us their own bushings. If you want to use a press, I'd say Redding or Whidden. If you want to go the Arbor press route, Wilson or a custom die is about it.
I would look on-line at all of the normal places for bushings. Sinclair, Midway, Bruno's, and any of the others. You may have to just backorder and wait.
The Lee collet die has a pretty loyal following. I have not heard of many problems with it. Have you had it apart for cleaning?Lots of shooters report on polishing the moving parts. Lightman
I would look on-line at all of the normal places for bushings. Sinclair, Midway, Bruno's, and any of the others. You may have to just backorder and wait.
The Lee collet die has a pretty loyal following. I have not heard of many problems with it. Have you had it apart for cleaning?Lots of shooters report on polishing the moving parts. Lightman
Yes, I've polished and lubed the inside of it. I do want to eventually get a arbor press and a seating force gauge but that's gonna have to wait a while. I just can't get rid of the 20% tension inconsistencies with the collet die. I have marked them and they do throw 9's at 600 
, I've either got to cull them or try another setup to get rid of them.
, I've either got to cull them or try another setup to get rid of them.You can't go wrong with Redding or Whidden. Since you are turning the neck, I would go with a bushing neck die and a body die. Some shooters like a FL die with neck bushing. Thats your choice. The micrometer top looks cool in your press, but its not really necessary, and it adds some cost to the die, if thats a factor. Most bushing die users buy the size that they think they need and a few on either side of that size. You see them for sale in the classified section here and on other sites, so keep looking. Lightman
Not to hijack the OP thread but I've notice this myself and was wondering if anyone knows what causes this?jsthntn247 said:
As the OP mentioned, the cases are annealed and sized with the LCD. I've noticed that some appears to have slightly smaller ID and don't understand why. The cases (Lapua) I am talking about are non-necked turned and so there could be some slight differences in neck thickness, but one would think the LCD by pressing inwards against the sizing mandrel should still produce relatively consistent ID?
I think understanding the cause could potentially help define a fix.
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
I think these guys covered the dies. When I look at the inconsistencies you are getting with the seating pressure, I'm not so sure I'd change dies if you had been happy with them. Changing sizers won't fix the underlying problem.
The seating differences are due most likely to one (or more) of these things:
*slight variations in neck thickness (despite being turned) If really bad,
break out the turner and attempt to return closer to those that are thinner.
Practice makes perfect.
*differences in neck hardness (were all casings fired with the same load the
same number of times?) Anneal the necks to make more uniform
*differences in amount of inside neck lube - or lack thereof
*the presence of "doughnut" formation inside the base of some necks. Take a
fired case and try to slide a bullet into it. If there is resistance when you
get past 2/3 of the way into the neck - you've got doughnuts. Need to
replace brass, ream doughnut away or turn neck again after expanding
and cut into neck slightly. After "fireforming", doughnut should be gone.
*a chamferring tool that is leaving rough edges on the inside of the
casemouth that creates varies friction when loading
I added to another post on how to make cases more uniform by placing thicker offending cases in a drill and taking down the exterior neck with (gad) wet-or-dry sandpaper, resizing and again testing on a K&M (or similar) seating force measuring tool. Very unpopular post for the non-believers who believe the use of sandpaper will kill you, your dog and all your friends. I still do it and it works well. Look back under the K&M force machine posts.
Good Luck
The seating differences are due most likely to one (or more) of these things:
*slight variations in neck thickness (despite being turned) If really bad,
break out the turner and attempt to return closer to those that are thinner.
Practice makes perfect.
*differences in neck hardness (were all casings fired with the same load the
same number of times?) Anneal the necks to make more uniform
*differences in amount of inside neck lube - or lack thereof
*the presence of "doughnut" formation inside the base of some necks. Take a
fired case and try to slide a bullet into it. If there is resistance when you
get past 2/3 of the way into the neck - you've got doughnuts. Need to
replace brass, ream doughnut away or turn neck again after expanding
and cut into neck slightly. After "fireforming", doughnut should be gone.
*a chamferring tool that is leaving rough edges on the inside of the
casemouth that creates varies friction when loading
I added to another post on how to make cases more uniform by placing thicker offending cases in a drill and taking down the exterior neck with (gad) wet-or-dry sandpaper, resizing and again testing on a K&M (or similar) seating force measuring tool. Very unpopular post for the non-believers who believe the use of sandpaper will kill you, your dog and all your friends. I still do it and it works well. Look back under the K&M force machine posts.
Good Luck
I would agree with you that changing sizer likely will not fix the underlying problem.
In the case I mentioned, I have actually taken out the mandrel from the LCD and tried to slide them inside the neck of the cases that have already been cleaned, annealed, and resize with the LCD. What I notice is that it will slide freely in a few but not in most, thus the reason for saying they have different ID.
In the case I mentioned, I have actually taken out the mandrel from the LCD and tried to slide them inside the neck of the cases that have already been cleaned, annealed, and resize with the LCD. What I notice is that it will slide freely in a few but not in most, thus the reason for saying they have different ID.
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
JLOW: I know what you mean. Going from having clearance to no clearance- enough to slide a mandrel in - is a small measurement indeed. And to think of how small the measurement is to just increase that friction a tad. Kind of mind boggling that we can even overcome some of these issues.
Searcher – your list is good and encompass what I am thinking off. I used to think it could be slight thickness variation at first but when I check that with a micrometer, I could not find a trend i.e. worse when it is thinner or thicker.
Annealing is still on my list of possibilities – I use a Benchsource and am pretty sure that the annealing temps are correct but I am starting to wonder if that “perfect†annealing is the same all over the neck since the case area being annealed i.e. the neck and the shoulders being pretty large may not be adequately covered…. Don’t know for now but will be looking into it more. I just brought a Mitutoyo 145-193 Inside Micrometer and will be using it to do some measurements and testing – stay tune.
Annealing is still on my list of possibilities – I use a Benchsource and am pretty sure that the annealing temps are correct but I am starting to wonder if that “perfect†annealing is the same all over the neck since the case area being annealed i.e. the neck and the shoulders being pretty large may not be adequately covered…. Don’t know for now but will be looking into it more. I just brought a Mitutoyo 145-193 Inside Micrometer and will be using it to do some measurements and testing – stay tune.
The brass I'm using is brand new lapua. I turned the necks down to .0145 when I first got them on my k&n neck turner. To do this I had to first expand the cases on the supplied mandrel in my die. I noticed that the same amount (1 in 5) were allot easier to expand up than the others, most were pretty tough even though I used neck lube on the case and mandrel. I should have marked those cases somehow to see if they were the ones that seated softer later on down the road. My guess is that they were and the problem started in the factory and I should have culled these from the beginning. I have to get 100 more shortly and will definitely mark the easier expanding cases to see if they seat softer after firing and annealing a few times. They are 2x fired now and I shot a 1" 15 shot group at 300 yards with the colleted cases yesterday but had 2 fliers at 3' oclock which were the softer seating bullets so I might not give up on it just yet.
You could be right about possible problem with factory annealing.
Next time you size with the LCD, take the mandrel out afterwards see if the fit inside the neck is the same. As mentioned earlier, I find that most are still a very tight fit due to spring back but a few allows the mandrel to slide through without any problem – I think those are the problematic ones.
Next time you size with the LCD, take the mandrel out afterwards see if the fit inside the neck is the same. As mentioned earlier, I find that most are still a very tight fit due to spring back but a few allows the mandrel to slide through without any problem – I think those are the problematic ones.
lightman said:
I went with a Forster Neck Sie/Shoulder Bump Bushing Die. Don't need to use a separate Body Die.
Only thing I found wrong was that the Forster Bushings had some deep markings stamped/rolled on them and I had to do some "smoothing" to get neck runout down. Called Forster's attention to this and they're solving the problem.
I like not having an extra step.
Not sure the problem is the die. I'm one of "loyal followers" of the Lee Collet Die and, if it is properly adjusted, it cannot give you inconsistent neck tensions. The neck is formed against a fixed mandrel which makes the interior dimension of all the necks the same. If the seating tension is different it is because the necks have inconsistent interior finishes, or the neck thicknesses are inconsistent.
I have nothing against good bushing dies, but there isn't a bushing die made that will give consistent neck tension to brass if a Lee Collet Die won't. The bushing die pushes any inconsistencies in the neck to the inside and makes the outside consistent. This is only an advantage if you have perfectly turned neck diameters and all the necks have the same interior finish.
Like or hate the Lee Collet Die, I have no dog in that fight, but a collet pressing the brass of a case neck against a consistently sized mandrel is as close to perfection as we can get.
I have nothing against good bushing dies, but there isn't a bushing die made that will give consistent neck tension to brass if a Lee Collet Die won't. The bushing die pushes any inconsistencies in the neck to the inside and makes the outside consistent. This is only an advantage if you have perfectly turned neck diameters and all the necks have the same interior finish.
Like or hate the Lee Collet Die, I have no dog in that fight, but a collet pressing the brass of a case neck against a consistently sized mandrel is as close to perfection as we can get.
Generally agree with you on all counts, but I have seen inconsistent ID after LCD and I am thinking this has to do with the brass annealing. The reason being that depending on the degree of annealing, the degree of spring back will be different and so even though they are all pressed against a consistently sized mandrel, the end result may be different – just a theory to explain what we have seen.
ReedG said:
As long as all the brass being sized is uniform. Annealed brass will spring back less than many times fired brass. Mix it up and you have uneven neck tensions even when using the collet die.
I've had neck turned brass actually have bullets "fall" into the case after sizing with a collet die. After I annealed the case it sized perfectly.
Lee could offer a great "accessory" for the Collet Dies. A set of mandrels in .001" increments, just like bushing die makers offer different size bushings. OK, so Lee will grind you a custom mandrel but a set would be a nice touch. Factor in the cost of ordering and shipping individual mandrels and there should also be a savings.
Would also be nice if Lee could figure out how to eliminate the "vertical ridges" on the neck that are formed when using their collets.
It’s an idea but in practice it is not as good as it sounds. The reason is trying to neck down by using a smaller LCD mandrel is really a brute force approach if your problem is uneven annealing. This is compounded by the fact that after you do this, you still don’t know what the final ID is.
Some people think that you could calculate ID by measuring external neck diameter and neck thickness and subtracting out the 2x neck thickness but that really does not work even with neck turn brass because of the inherent error compounding three very small measurements, the fact that the necks are not perfectly round, and the problem of the very small difference in the ID and diameter of the bullet i.e. 0.001 to 0.002†which is responsible for gripping the bullet. This is why it is very important to anneal your neck very precisely since it does not only soften your necks differently but have big effects on spring back and neck tension.
Some people think that you could calculate ID by measuring external neck diameter and neck thickness and subtracting out the 2x neck thickness but that really does not work even with neck turn brass because of the inherent error compounding three very small measurements, the fact that the necks are not perfectly round, and the problem of the very small difference in the ID and diameter of the bullet i.e. 0.001 to 0.002†which is responsible for gripping the bullet. This is why it is very important to anneal your neck very precisely since it does not only soften your necks differently but have big effects on spring back and neck tension.
Definitely going to test the brass by inserting the mandrel in the cases after sizing with the LCD next time. Going to also try to anneal some cases differently next time and see if that changes anything.
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