Where all all the shooters???

[pappaw]

Yes!
This exactly. I would like to see a strict $$$ limit, not equipment, imposed by class. Lets say $750, $1250, $2000, and unlimited. This INCLUDES the price of the optic. That would give the person shooting their hunting rifle a realistic chance. THAT is a class I would compete in. Then I could build something that I want and can use for more than just a range queen.
For $750 I can get a Ruger American, Savage Axis, Mossberg Patriot, TC Venture, or what have you in XXX caliber, a set of rings for cheap, a bipod, a bag, and a scope in 4-16 or maybe even 6-24. Work up a load and compete.

NEVER going to happen... But a fella can dream.

IBS this year will have a true factory class with SOY points for that division. Rifle has to be a true factory rifle, barrel,trigger and stock. Should be a good place to start shooting for a beginner or someone on a limited budget.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yes!
This exactly. I would like to see a strict $$$ limit, not equipment, imposed by class. Lets say $750, $1250, $2000, and unlimited. This INCLUDES the price of the optic. That would give the person shooting their hunting rifle a realistic chance. THAT is a class I would compete in. Then I could build something that I want and can use for more than just a range queen.
For $750 I can get a Ruger American, Savage Axis, Mossberg Patriot, TC Venture, or what have you in XXX caliber, a set of rings for cheap, a bipod, a bag, and a scope in 4-16 or maybe even 6-24. Work up a load and compete.

NEVER going to happen... But a fella can dream.

There's a common misconception in this sport that you can buy wins...It doesn't work like that. Yes, you can cheat yourself out of a competitive rig by cutting corners but you can't buy the wins with equipment.
Wins are earned with trigger time, over good flags and with good equipment and loads. BR is not so much a game of good shots as it is about who screws up least. Everyone is tied for the lead until they start shooting.

That said, I spoke with someone this morning that bought(stole) a sleeved 700 br rifle for $450. Realistically, these rifles bring $700-$1100 commonly. It's amazing how these old guns will shoot...They can hang very close to the latest greatest customs. UBR has a Modified class just for such rifles, where anything 30 cal or less, 3 inch forearm and under 13.5lbs, built on a factory actioned rifle can compete. It's a very competitive class that is the least expensive class to be COMPETITIVE in. Winning scores are often at or near Custom and Unlimited scores.

 

[dgeesaman]

IBS this year will have a true factory class with SOY points for that division. Rifle has to be a true factory rifle, barrel,trigger and stock. Should be a good place to start shooting for a beginner or someone on a limited budget.

I have a great rifle for that rule set (Sako 6PPC) but it’s nice enough that I don’t want to shoot out the barrel. I have another Sako 6PPC with custom barrel that I would be willing to burn up but allowing custom barrels / chambers might be Pandora’s box.

A couple of local clubs do groundhog shoots with factory classes. I was ready to sign up until I saw they outlawed PPCs and BRs from this class. So my Sakos would have been classed unlimited and fed to the wolves. Not that my trigger skills were up to the task of course.

Okay, we agree.......mostly. I think if we have a factory class and it is a true factory weight should not matter BUT as we said in drag racing "run what you brung", stay with a factory trigger and all the rest, limit the rest to something like the 3 legged ones and a rear squeeze bag. Let everyone reload and I'm sure a lot of you that have been in this can add a LOT to this list but the simpler it is the better off we would be, scope limited to a certain power, just maybe there is already a class like this, I don't know. What are your thoughts?

As for my opinion on rules : this is a slippery slope to regulate. Do you want to be competitively fair or inclusive?

Handloading is almost a practical requirement. We know about the ammo testing and lot buying that has made rimfire benchrest competition expensive. Handloading is almost needed for cost reasons.

I think FTR rules are set up for easy entry - are those rules holding up against competitive pressure? I know .223 is just not competitive against .308.

Autocross racing handles different cars by classing them and handicapping the classes against each other. New stuff is always coming out and evolving so every year at nationals, those results are used to tweak the equivalence formula (called PAX) based on the top competitor results. Perhaps the same thing could be done in score based competition to allow underpowered shooters a place to fit in. (Spoiler alert: autocross PAX results are very humbling to beginners anyway)

 

[miningshawn]

There's a common misconception in this sport that you can buy wins...It doesn't work like that. Yes, you can cheat yourself out of a competitive rig by cutting corners but you can't buy the wins with equipment.
Wins are earned with trigger time, over good flags and with good equipment and loads. BR is not so much a game of good shots as it is about who screws up least. Everyone is tied for the lead until they start shooting.

That said, I spoke with someone this morning that bought(stole) a sleeved 700 br rifle for $450. Realistically, these rifles bring $700-$1100 commonly. It's amazing how these old guns will shoot...They can hang very close to the latest greatest customs. UBR has a Modified class just for such rifles, where anything 30 cal or less, 3 inch forearm and under 13.5lbs, built on a factory actioned rifle can compete. It's a very competitive class that is the least expensive class to be COMPETITIVE in. Winning scores are often at or near Custom and Unlimited scores.

Can't buy wins - I respect that. Where I am going is that I can enter a class with the gear I own and compete against other setups and probable skillsets just like mine. I have the ability to grow within the sport and learn what I want to learn - and how it applies to me.

Things I don't like? 17lb rifles, $1100 Kestrels, $1400 stocks, $1000 front rests, snobby and condescending aficionados, etc... I want to truly "run what I brung" and compete with other folks in the same bracket. That is why I am interested in cost-based competition. I WANT to learn how to be better at what I WANT to do.

BPCR is huge where I am at, NRA leg and XTC courses are hanging in there. Neither of those disciplines interest me. I want to pull out my p-dog shooter and shoot for score. I want to run a PRS with my hunting rifle. I want to do 2 and 3 gun with the stuff I already have. I don't want to own a rifle that does just one thing, then I rub it with a diaper for the rest of the year. I also wouldn't mind seeing gear that is a step up from mine instead of a month's wages.

If it's only about rules and gear - I would take up golf. It's cheaper and there is beer.

 

[johara1]

If there was a school/class for reloading I would have enrolled when I started this. It can be a little overwhelming if you are starting from scratch.

When I started at casual range matches I soon found out that "match grade" factory ammo wouldn't cut it. Fortunately I found someone to guide me along as I spent countless hours reading and watching and learning. If I would have known all that was going to be involved at the beginning I might have passed on it. Now I am teaching my neighbor, who has decades of reloading experience, what precision reloading involves.

For any of you "old-timers" out there, don't hesitate to pass on that hard earned experience. It means a lot.

Been doing it for a long time, but some may pay attention, and some just want to argue.....BTW there is a school at Williamsport every year, check it out... jim

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Can't buy wins - I respect that. Where I am going is that I can enter a class with the gear I own and compete against other setups and probable skillsets just like mine. I have the ability to grow within the sport and learn what I want to learn - and how it applies to me.

Things I don't like? 17lb rifles, $1100 Kestrels, $1400 stocks, $1000 front rests, snobby and condescending aficionados, etc... I want to truly "run what I brung" and compete with other folks in the same bracket. That is why I am interested in cost-based competition. I WANT to learn how to be better at what I WANT to do.

BPCR is huge where I am at, NRA leg and XTC courses are hanging in there. Neither of those disciplines interest me. I want to pull out my p-dog shooter and shoot for score. I want to run a PRS with my hunting rifle. I want to do 2 and 3 gun with the stuff I already have. I don't want to own a rifle that does just one thing, then I rub it with a diaper for the rest of the year. I also wouldn't mind seeing gear that is a step up from mine instead of a month's wages.

If it's only about rules and gear - I would take up golf. It's cheaper and there is beer.

I can relate to that. UBR factory class is intended to be much as you are looking for. But what happens, appears to be that people tend to buy and sell until they find a gun that they can win with. That's why I believe Modified is actually less expensive to be COMPETITIVE in. A good, used $800 sleeved 700 br rifle will shoot way better than virtually any and all factory rifles., costing more money. That doesn't mean that someone else can't have one of those special factory rifles, or that they can't finish well in that class. A good Savage can and often does win a lot of factory class matches. In fact, that's what the reigning factory class champion shoots, in 6br.

 

[UH-1H]

I can relate to that. UBR factory class is intended to be much as you are looking for. But what happens, appears to be that people tend to buy and sell until they find a gun that they can win with. That's why I believe Modified is actually less expensive to be COMPETITIVE in. A good, used $800 sleeved 700 br rifle will shoot way better than virtually any and all factory rifles., costing more money. That doesn't mean that someone else can't have one of those special factory rifles, or that they can't finish well in that class. A good Savage can and often does win a lot of factory class matches. In fact, that's what the reigning factory class champion shoots, in 6br.

Yep, And I got a brand new one to compete with this year. Just need to put at least 1000 rds through it before nationals Just to get it to shoot good, lol

 

[mjl650]

A lot of the guys around here are changing over to air rifles and shooting other guy's basements in custom ranges they have built. No noise, no smoke, no reloading, no foul weather and no wind,... not sure I'm ready to go down that road yet.

I am going in the opposite direction. I have a 10m range in my basement and a 100yd+ in my back yard. Can also do 69yds out my garage door if the weather gets bad. I have way more $ invested in my airguns(some costing more than all but 1 of my firearms)and support equipment.
That said I haven't shot a pellet since mid November but I make a trip to the range at least every 2 weeks faithfully to shoot firearms. At this point I very much enjoy the reloading part and am working on shrinking my groups. Just want to say this forum has helped me immensely in that respect. So count me as a member here that doesn't participate in matches.
As for competing I compete against myself but once I build more confidence in my abilities I might seek out sanctioned competitions. At 69 I better do it soon

 

[JEFFPPC]

I am going in the opposite direction. I have a 10m range in my basement and a 100yd+ in my back yard. Can also do 69yds out my garage door if the weather gets bad. I have way more $ invested in my airguns(some costing more than all but 1 of my firearms)and support equipment.
That said I haven't shot a pellet since mid November but I make a trip to the range at least every 2 weeks faithfully to shoot firearms. At this point I very much enjoy the reloading part and am working on shrinking my groups. Just want to say this forum has helped me immensely in that respect. So count me as a member here that doesn't participate in matches.
As for competing I compete against myself but once I build more confidence in my abilities I might seek out sanctioned competitions. At 69 I better do it soon

Mjl650, you make a good point. I always advise new shooters to forget the other shooter, if you beat the target you will do well. The target is your competition.

 

[DukeDuke]

The $ limit should be the other way around!
rifle+glass $6,000 minimum, front rest $1,000, bi-pod $500.99, vehicle $70,000
and so forth! I'm just tired of shooters with substandard equipment and ugly too.
Labradars and fx120i+v3 auto tricklers should be mandatory!!!

 

[Old Tanker]

I look at the members list on this site and see thousands and 10s of thousands, but yet many competitive shoots are going away or have shrinking numbers attending. Why are all these people out there interested in accuracy while having a lot of great shooting rifles but attendance at matches shrinks. Do less and less have the confidence in themselves to try themselves and their equipment against other folks? Do guys just like to look at a shiny new rifle and find out what makes it tick by reading how others figure out how to improve to higher standards. To me it's quite obvious the vast majority of readers of this forum compete very little or not at all. So you who dont, I would like to know why, I am not interested in those of us who do, but why those who enjoy accurate rifles shy away from competition .

I’m very interested in PRC but the only range capable of supporting this event in KY (Rock Castle) is going through restructuring. Sad that a state known historically for shooters, may not have a suitable range. Also, at 68 years old, I’m not sure I have the dexterity for bolt manipulation or the eye sight for quick target acquisition needed for competition. I watched the AG Challenge on Shooting USA. Those guys were incredible. I’m also wishing there were more affordable, one day classes. I can afford a $700 two day course but it is still a lot of money. Been doing load testing at Irvington (100) and Knob Creek (300) but need some place to go longer, before I decide I am able to compete.

 

[JEFFPPC]

I’m very interested in PRC but the only range capable of supporting this event in KY (Rock Castle) is going through restructuring. Sad that a state known historically for shooters, may not have a suitable range. Also, at 68 years old, I’m not sure I have the dexterity for bolt manipulation or the eye sight for quick target acquisition needed for competition. I watched the AG Challenge on Shooting USA. Those guys were incredible. I’m also wishing there were more affordable, one day classes. I can afford a $700 two day course but it is still a lot of money. Been doing load testing at Irvington (100) and Knob Creek (300) but need some place to go longer, before I decide I am able to compete.

I’m very interested in PRC but the only range capable of supporting this event in KY (Rock Castle) is going through restructuring. Sad that a state known historically for shooters, may not have a suitable range. Also, at 68 years old, I’m not sure I have the dexterity for bolt manipulation or the eye sight for quick target acquisition needed for competition. I watched the AG Challenge on Shooting USA. Those guys were incredible. I’m also wishing there were more affordable, one day classes. I can afford a $700 two day course but it is still a lot of money. Been doing load testing at Irvington (100) and Knob Creek (300) but need some place to go longer, before I decide I am able to compete.

Hmmmmmm 68, maybe you should join us in some long range benchrest, requires a little more percision and a whole lot less movment.

 

[Old Tanker]

Hmmmmmm 68, maybe you should join us in some long range benchrest, requires a little more percision and a whole lot less movment.

Still a case of where.

 

[Shooter13]

Hmmmmmm 68, maybe you should join us in some long range benchrest, requires a little more percision and a whole lot less movment.

I think Jeff is in PA, that is a long way for us KY boys to travel, you could come to Danville where the UBR Nationals were held last year and this year, or maybe go to Dixon Springs, TN for UBR they have a really nice range too. Oh, and Somerset, KY too!

 

[Dusty Stevens]

In koontucky you can be a ubr man. Get with @gunsandgunsmithing and @Greyfox to get yourself squared away and ready to shoot

 

[R.Morehouse]

Mjl650, you make a good point. I always advise new shooters to forget the other shooter, if you beat the target you will do well. The target is your competition.

When I decided to concentrate the bulk of my efforts on 6ppc group shooting I wrapped myself around this philosophy. I knew I didn't have the time and resources to play the game at the top level. My competition ( like everyone else) is the conditions. When I focus on kicking my own ass from target to target I find that deep down in there I don't want my fellow shooters to do bad so I look better on the wall at the end of the day.......I really do enjoy the camaraderie and I will admit that winning stuff IS fun....

Regards
Rick

 

[Stan Taylor]

We can all come to West Virginia and shoot GBA 1000 yard or 600 yard Benchrest where we have a factory and tactical class. I have heard rumors, that the IBS has introduced a factory and tactical class into their organization also, which gives shooters that don't have the money to build for full Benchrest guns to compete against each other.

 

[Greyfox]

I’m very interested in PRC but the only range capable of supporting this event in KY (Rock Castle) is going through restructuring. Sad that a state known historically for shooters, may not have a suitable range. Also, at 68 years old, I’m not sure I have the dexterity for bolt manipulation or the eye sight for quick target acquisition needed for competition. I watched the AG Challenge on Shooting USA. Those guys were incredible. I’m also wishing there were more affordable, one day classes. I can afford a $700 two day course but it is still a lot of money. Been doing load testing at Irvington (100) and Knob Creek (300) but need some place to go longer, before I decide I am able to compete.

If you are close enough to shoot at Rock Castle and Knob Creek then you are within easy driving distance of several UBR matches which will begin in March. These would include Buck Creek (Somerset), BGSL (Wilmore), Boyle County (Danville) and Dry Branch (Lafayette TN). THis is not PRC, but won't require much dexterity and most of the shooters are around your age or older. We typically shoot two yardages in a match and some ranges (Dry Branch) shoot both yards and meters and compete at 300). I can't speak for any range other than Dry Branch, but we do provide a rifle, ammo and all you need for your first match for no charge other than the day's match fees ($30).

Also, as has been mentioned UBR has a workable Factory and Modified Class. We are beginning our 10th season and have found the Factory Class rules are both fair and no problem to oversee. As Mike pointed out, several of us have found Modified Class to be the most affordable to both compete and win. It is not unusal for tne Modified winner in a match to shoot a better score than both Custom and Unlimited. I have two rifles that have both won in SSOY and one has set a record in Unlimited. I bought both of these rifles initially for $400 each. Of course, they have been rebarreled since then and I have more $$ in them. I will also point out that if an individual is prudent and does his shopping he can get in this game for a reasonable sum and should he choose to get out after a time his investment can usually be recovered less the amount for possibly a barrel replacement.

One more thought. You mention becoming able to compete. The best and probably quickest way to become competitive is to compete. Don't be concerned about where you will place in your first few matches. Compete with yourself and just show up and shoot. You will get better and you will learn things you can't learn shooting alone.

Rick

 

[Shooter13]

If you are close enough to shoot at Rock Castle and Knob Creek then you are within easy driving distance of several UBR matches which will begin in March. These would include Buck Creek (Somerset), BGSL (Wilmore), Boyle County (Danville) and Dry Branch (Lafayette TN). THis is not PRC, but won't require much dexterity and most of the shooters are around your age or older. We typically shoot two yardages in a match and some ranges (Dry Branch) shoot both yards and meters and compete at 300). I can't speak for any range other than Dry Branch, but we do provide a rifle, ammo and all you need for your first match for no charge other than the day's match fees ($30).

Also, as has been mentioned UBR has a workable Factory and Modified Class. We are beginning our 10th season and have found the Factory Class rules are both fair and no problem to oversee. As Mike pointed out, several of us have found Modified Class to be the most affordable to both compete and win. It is not unusal for tne Modified winner in a match to shoot a better score than both Custom and Unlimited. I have two rifles that have both won in SSOY and one has set a record in Unlimited. I bought both of these rifles initially for $400 each. Of course, they have been rebarreled since then and I have more $$ in them. I will also point out that if an individual is prudent and does his shopping he can get in this game for a reasonable sum and should he choose to get out after a time his investment can usually be recovered less the amount for possibly a barrel replacement.

One more thought. You mention becoming able to compete. The best and probably quickest way to become competitive is to compete. Don't be concerned about where you will place in your first few matches. Compete with yourself and just show up and shoot. You will get better and you will learn things you can't learn shooting alone.

Rick

All good points Rick! And he will actually enjoy talking with all us old farts

 

[Old Tanker]

If you are close enough to shoot at Rock Castle and Knob Creek then you are within easy driving distance of several UBR matches which will begin in March. These would include Buck Creek (Somerset), BGSL (Wilmore), Boyle County (Danville) and Dry Branch (Lafayette TN). THis is not PRC, but won't require much dexterity and most of the shooters are around your age or older. We typically shoot two yardages in a match and some ranges (Dry Branch) shoot both yards and meters and compete at 300). I can't speak for any range other than Dry Branch, but we do provide a rifle, ammo and all you need for your first match for no charge other than the day's match fees ($30).

Also, as has been mentioned UBR has a workable Factory and Modified Class. We are beginning our 10th season and have found the Factory Class rules are both fair and no problem to oversee. As Mike pointed out, several of us have found Modified Class to be the most affordable to both compete and win. It is not unusal for tne Modified winner in a match to shoot a better score than both Custom and Unlimited. I have two rifles that have both won in SSOY and one has set a record in Unlimited. I bought both of these rifles initially for $400 each. Of course, they have been rebarreled since then and I have more $$ in them. I will also point out that if an individual is prudent and does his shopping he can get in this game for a reasonable sum and should he choose to get out after a time his investment can usually be recovered less the amount for possibly a barrel replacement.

One more thought. You mention becoming able to compete. The best and probably quickest way to become competitive is to compete. Don't be concerned about where you will place in your first few matches. Compete with yourself and just show up and shoot. You will get better and you will learn things you can't learn shooting alone.

Rick

Thanks Rick. Do these ranges have web or FB pages? I don’t have a BR rifle but I do have a poor man’s entry level precision rifle. An RPR in 6.5 CM. It holds between .4 and .75 at 100 and 1.5-2 at 300. I also have a Rem 700 Tactical in .223. I put an Oryx chassis on it. Only a 1-9 twist, so I shoot mainly 60 gr bullets. My hunting rifle is a .308 Tika T3 Lite. I use that when I go back home to the Rockies on hunting trips. Only a 19.5” barrel. I used to shoot service rifle but no longer have the NM AR.