When To Anneal?

[wkdickinson]

I just purchased a new Annealeze annealer. This is my first foray into annealing. So this may be a stupid question, but at what point in the reloading process do anneal, before you full-length resize or after? My logic would say before, so that the neck and shoulder are soft, so you will get less "spring back".

Thanks!

 

[mikeeg02]

After firing I decap, wipe the outside of my necks with 0000 steel wool, then anneal. Now if necessary trim and debur, clean the inside of the necks and the last thing I do is size before loading.

Others may have slightly different ways. But that's how I do it. Hope that helps

 

[JimSC]

here is a link to a doctoral dissertation on the subject of annealing. It's 71 pages long but you can skip to the chase at 13.0 Conclusions and recommendations. The author uses .308 Lapua cartridges and worked with Tim Stewart. Some revelations about neck turning in there also


https://web.archive.org/web/2016013...x_htm_files/Ryan Stevenson - Dissertation.pdf

 

[CT10ring]

I just purchased a new Annealeze annealer. This is my first foray into annealing. So this may be a stupid question, but at what point in the reloading process do anneal, before you full-length resize or after? My logic would say before, so that the neck and shoulder are soft, so you will get less "spring back".

Thanks!

lotta info previously discussed on AS - perhaps you could try search tab "annealing"...

 

[jthor]

For precision brass I anneal every time. For plinking brass, every 3-5 reloads.

 

[wkdickinson]

After firing I decap, wipe the outside of my necks with 0000 steel wool, then anneal. Now if necessary trim and debur, clean the inside of the necks and the last thing I do is size before loading.

Others may have slightly different ways. But that's how I do it. Hope that helps

Thanks, just what I was looking for!

 

[wkdickinson]

here is a link to a doctoral dissertation on the subject of annealing. It's 71 pages long but you can skip to the chase at 13.0 Conclusions and recommendations. The author uses .308 Lapua cartridges and worked with Tim Stewart. Some revelations about neck turning in there also


https://web.archive.org/web/20160131030702/http://nlrc.org/index_htm_files/Ryan Stevenson - Dissertation.pdf

Very interesting and informative paper. Thanks for the link!

 

[Texas10]

I think any annealing process you use is going to be subject to variances in operator technique. IMOP using a 3300 F heat source that needs to be applied in an impossibly consistent manner is not the best, yet many swear by this process. Perhaps it was my inability to get it consistent enough for my expectations that led me to investigate another method.

Not having the scratch for an induction method annealer, I chose Salt Bath because I know for sure what temperature I'm subjecting the brass to, and because the case is submerged in the media up to the shoulder, there can't be any hot spots.

I am in the corner with those who feel sizing, cleaning and annealing is best, and I do get very good neck tension feel in the seating stage. But I don't shoot competitively so take it for what it's worth.

For my 223 brass, I use a very different method that gives .3 moa accuracy. I DON'T anneal, I neck size only and make use of the spring back tendency of hardened brass to deliver consistent neck tension. With this method, the difference in neck measurement after sizing and after bullet seating is about .0005 (half a thousandths).

I am using a Lee neck sizing die only to size brass used in a SAAMI spec chamber. Your dies may deliver a different result.

 

[Straightshooter1]

I just purchased a new Annealeze annealer. This is my first foray into annealing. So this may be a stupid question, but at what point in the reloading process do anneal, before you full-length resize or after? My logic would say before, so that the neck and shoulder are soft, so you will get less "spring back".

I happen to use Annealeze annealer too and I find I get my best results when annealing before I do anything else (except, I do decap them first), then into the tumbler for cleaning.

PS: I also anneal them all after every firing.

 

[ej3rd]

I decap, tumble then anneal. I also use the salt bath process. I made a PID controller that keeps the salt bath within 2 degrees C of the target temperature so everything is as consistent as possible. There is so much information/misinformation/theory/opinion out there it can be confusing. I try to be as consistent as possible and run with it.

 

[JimSC]

I think the main problem here is people simply do not understand which properties of the metal annealing affects and which it does not it does not. I think everyone at this point knows that when you anneal a piece of brass you are actually are heating it above it's recrystallization temperature and holding it there for a set amount of time allowing atoms to migrate in the crystal lattice and reduce the number of dislocations. This will change the ductility and the hardness of the metal. 70/30 brass or cartridge brass Brass can be purchased in any hardness from annealed to H10 Spring Brass. The properties that change with the annealing are the tensile strength, yield strength, electrical resistivity, and electrical conductivity. There are many other properties that do not change one of which is the modulus of elasticity. Here is the book definition of Modulus of Elasticity

The slope of the line in this region where stress is proportional to strain and is called the modulus of elasticity or Young's modulus. The modulus of elasticity (E) defines the properties of a material as it undergoes stress, deforms, and then returns to its original shape after the stress is removed. It is a measure of the stiffness of a given material. To compute the modulus of elastic , simply divide the stress by the strain in the material. Since strain is unitless, the modulus will have the same units as the stress, such as kpi or MPa. The modulus of elasticity applies specifically to the situation of a component being stretched with a tensile force. This modulus is of interest when it is necessary to compute how much a rod or wire stretches under a tensile load.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)

Just think of a rubber band wrapped around you finger. How hard it squeezes is the modulus of elasticity. That is why I say if you want to anneal for brass life go for it, that is why items are annealed after work hardening. However if you are annealing for neck tension then you are wasting time and money. The elasticity will be the same no matter how perfect the anneal or how work hardened that neck is. the elasticity is still the same regardless of the metals hardness

see for yourself http://www.lfa-wire.com/70-30-brass-wire_c26000.htm

edited to correct the two beer typos

 

[Straightshooter1]

Just think of a rubber band wrapped around you finger. How hard it squeezes is the modulus of elasticity. That is why I say if you want to anneal for brass life go for it, that is why items are annealed after work hardening. However if you are annealing for neck tension then you are wasting time and money. The elasticity will be the same no matter how perfect the anneal or how work hardened that neck is. the elasticity is still the same regardless of the metals hardness

Hmmm??? If annealing provides no real neck tension benefit but does extend the life the the brass . . . isn't that a good enough reason to anneal and is not really a waste of time and money?

 

[JimSC]

Hmmm??? If annealing provides no real neck tension benefit but does extend the life the the brass . . . isn't that a good enough reason to anneal and is not really a waste of time and money?

Considering the time and effort that some on this forum put into their case prep I would say sure. Wildcatting and fireforming would also be a darn good reason to anneal. When I am resizing my cases I only move the shoulder back .002. Converting cartridges with fire forming , hydro forming etc is a whole different animal. If I ever break down and get a 6 Dasher I will probably drop the bucks on a AMP or build a home made induction unit at the same time. I can think of some other good reasons also, .338 lapuas are not cheap, neither are .257 Roberts and a slew of other cases that are common in the hobby. At this time I shoot commonly available cartridges and good brass costs me $1 a case. I seem to get consistent velocities and case life in the double digits with premium brass so I see no reason for me to worry about it much. I just see a lot of misconceptions as to what it actually does I made that post

 

[mikeeg02]

I think the main problem here is people simply do not understand which properties of the metal annealing affects and which it does not it does not. I think everyone at this point knows that when you anneal a piece of brass you are actually are heating it above it's recrystallization temperature and allowing holding it there for a set amount of time allowing atoms to migrate in the crystal lattice and reduce the number of dislocations. This will change the ductility and the hardness of the metal. 70/30 brass or cartridge brass Brass can be purchased in any hardness from annealed to H10 Spring Brass. The properties that change with the annealing are the tensile strength, yield strength, electrical resistivity, and electrical conductivity. There are many other properties that do not change one of which is the modulus of elasticity. Here is the book definition of Modulus of Elasticity



Just think of a rubber band wrapped around you finger. How hard it squeezes is the modulus of elasticity. That is why I say if you want to anneal for brass life go for it, that is why items are annealed after work hardening. However if you are annealing for neck tension then you are wasting time and money. The elasticity will be the same no matter how perfect the anneal or how work hardened that neck is. the elasticity is still the same regardless of the metals hardness

see for yourself http://www.lfa-wire.com/70-30-brass-wire_c26000.htm

So because that data sheet does not give the changes in elasticity per hardness/annealed, you assume it doesnt change? Even though the data shows different tensile and yield strengths, you assume because that data point was not listed, that it didnt change? Generally when people are buying alloys of metal, they want to know yield and tensile strength. Elasticity isnt as common a value listed. While I dont buy bulk or custom alloys often, I do from time to time. Doesnt make me an expert, but its something I know enough about to be dangerous.(though maybe only to myself)

And while I am not writing my dissertation for my masters degree, I sure do test ALOT of things. And I know several others who have as well. I can tell you that like that data sheet says, my annealed brass is much softer than fired brass. (even though the phd says it gets harder/hard spots) When sizing, annealed brass requires much much less shoulder bump to achieve desired set back. The harder you fry your cases in the annealer, the more the same die setting will move the shoulder back. There probably is an upper end to where it doesnt move the shoulder back any more, but that I have not specifically tested, nor do I care.

I also have experienced that cases that have double digit firings, and have not been annealed, will hide pressure better, and as a result the case can be driven harder, without showing any sign of pressure. Take the same case and anneal it, and you're back to square one, a much softer shoulder.

The difference, and benefit to annealing (in my limited experience) has been that if you dont anneal, you need to be very cautious about keeping brass on the same number of firings, to have a similar amount of work hardening, so that when the catridge is ignited, the brass reacts the same. Where as with annealing, it becomes less important, as the key part of whats been sized, has now been softened up and matched to the others.

I didnt anneal at all last year, and adjusting my die for the first few firings got me by, but I had to do it to keep on top of it. This year, with annealing I havent moved my die once, from new until the ten firings I have on the cases now. The shoulder bump has been exactly the same. My groups on paper at 1k yards have also been much much more consistent then previous years. I will warn that once you start annealing, you may need to make changes in your load vs your old load with annealed cases. Pressure shows up a lot faster than with several times fired brass.

I'm not saying that you cant get by and shoot well at 1k without annealing, but there are many good reasons the top shooters are doing it. Its not just because they are looking for another step.


Now if I could just keep them centered up................

 

[JimSC]

So because that data sheet does not give the changes in elasticity per hardness/annealed, you assume it doesnt change? Even though the data shows different tensile and yield strengths, you assume because that data point was not listed, that it didnt change?

I can see you missed the entire point of the post. The neck tension is dependent on the elasticity which does not change with the hardness of the brass. Annealing changes the hardness but not the elasticity. I cannot put it more simply than that. Your personal anecdotes are fine but the science is what it is. I did not make those pages up out of thin air, they are engineering facts

 

[RegionRat]

For cartridge brass, the Young's Modulus of elasticity in tension is roughly 16000 kpsi and what moves around with the hardness values is the ultimate strength and the yield strength, as well as the percent elongation. JimSC is correct, the Young's Modulus for cartridge brass is fairly constant with the heat treat. When the material is work hardened, the modulus doesn't change much, but the hoop stress that will cause a yield or fracture will. When we hit a yield, then we are not going to get the same elastic tension.

So both sides of the argument are correct, but for different reasons.

 

[338 dude]

I happen to use Annealeze annealer too and I find I get my best results when annealing before I do anything else (except, I do decap them first), then into the tumbler for cleaning.

PS: I also anneal them all after every firing.

Consistency is key if you do not Anneal every time your cases are not the same every time and i Anneal first before I do anything else

 

[LRC]

I have the AMP annealer and the instruction manual suggests to anneal before sizing, and every reload

 

[jepp2]

So this may be a stupid question, but at what point in the reloading process do anneal, before you full-length resize or after? My logic would say before, so that the neck and shoulder are soft, so you will get less "spring back".

This has been discussed in the past, anneal before sizing or after sizing? Generally the discussion conclusion was doesn't make any difference.

I anneal after sizing, but for a specific reason. After annealing, the outside of the case neck has an oxide coating on it that tends to come off in the neck of the sizing die during sizing. After a few hundred rounds, I find the case necks are being lightly scored by the brass that has accumulated in the die neck. At this point I clean the die with Flitz. Now I am talking about very minor marks that most folks might not notice. But I do. And yes, I lube my case shoulders and necks lightly. So I anneal after sizing. I SS tumble and it never happens after that, which is the next firing cycle.

Concerning how often to anneal, kind of depends. Some like the consistency of annealing every time. My view is it depends on how much work you are putting into the case neck. So I know the fired neck OD, the sized neck OD prior to expanding, and the expanded neck OD. If you are using a factory non-bushing die that undersizes the case neck ~0.008", and your factory chamber allows the case neck to expand a substantial amount over the loaded neck OD, anneal more often.

 

[Webster]

This has been discussed in the past, anneal before sizing or after sizing? Generally the discussion conclusion was doesn't make any difference.

I anneal after sizing, but for a specific reason. After annealing, the outside of the case neck has an oxide coating on it that tends to come off in the neck of the sizing die during sizing. After a few hundred rounds, I find the case necks are being lightly scored by the brass that has accumulated in the die neck. At this point I clean the die with Flitz. Now I am talking about very minor marks that most folks might not notice. But I do. And yes, I lube my case shoulders and necks lightly. So I anneal after sizing. I SS tumble and it never happens after that, which is the next firing cycle.

Concerning how often to anneal, kind of depends. Some like the consistency of annealing every time. My view is it depends on how much work you are putting into the case neck. So I know the fired neck OD, the sized neck OD prior to expanding, and the expanded neck OD. If you are using a factory non-bushing die that undersizes the case neck ~0.008", and your factory chamber allows the case neck to expand a substantial amount over the loaded neck OD, anneal more often.

I take fired cases deprime then anneal then spin the neck area by hand with 0000 steel wool. If I don't anneal I still clean the neck area with steel wool to keep my lube pad clean looking clean. Some guys think annealing may distort the neck shape, sizing after staightens them out? Never had oxide junk in my dies.