When to anneal?

[Webster]

It doesn't really work that way. Harder, cold worked brass is more stiff and brittle so it obturates (forms around) the mandrel more and doesn't spring back as much as softer, annealed brass. Think of metal fatigue, if you bend it enough times without heat it will eventually stretch out and break.

If your theory is correct annealing the brass so it is very soft would give more neck tension. To carry it to an extreme if the brass is dead soft obviously you would have very little neck tension. The purpose of annealing is to get consistent tension. Annealed and unannealed brass would both be in elastic tension. If both conditions had the same amount of spring back. I would think the harder brass would pull back with more force.

 

[terraMODA]

If your theory is correct annealing the brass so it is very soft would give more neck tension. To carry it to an extreme if the brass is dead soft obviously you would have very little neck tension. The purpose of annealing is to get consistent tension. Annealed and unannealed brass would both be in elastic tension. If both conditions had the same amount of spring back. I would think the harder brass would pull back with more force.

Ok, I see your argument. All I know is, from my personal experience, my brass loses neck tension after a few firings if I don't anneal. Annealing helps restore my neck tension. This is not a theory but an observation I have made with several different calibers. I may have gotten the physics of it backwards but I think I understand now.

When the neck gets work hardened by firing and resizing, the brass develops more spring-back. In other words, when the case is fired, the neck expands to the point that a bullet placed into the neck will slide in easily. (No neck tension) When we resize, the hardened brass has more spring-back so it 'springs back' more to the original size before you resized it. (No neck tension) By annealing, the neck is softer and does not spring back to the oversized, fired diameter as much, giving you more neck tension. I would have to disagree that harder, coldworked brass gives you more tension. Since it has more springback it is less tolerant to resizing.

 

[terraMODA]

If your theory is correct annealing the brass so it is very soft would give more neck tension. To carry it to an extreme if the brass is dead soft obviously you would have very little neck tension. The purpose of annealing is to get consistent tension. Annealed and unannealed brass would both be in elastic tension. If both conditions had the same amount of spring back. I would think the harder brass would pull back with more force.

Its not theory. Its physics. Neck tension is not so much a property of how hard or soft the brass is but how it is resized. Softer brass can be resized more accurately since it does not spring back as much. Why are cartridge necks and shoulders annealed in the factory? Because that is where the most dramatic forming takes place.

 

[Webster]

Its not theory. Its physics. Neck tension is not so much a property of how hard or soft the brass is but how it is resized. Softer brass can be resized more accurately since it does not spring back as much. Why are cartridge necks and shoulders annealed in the factory? Because that is where the most dramatic forming takes place.

Tension is related to both. Do it the same way you get the same result. Sounds like metallurgy not physics. Factory annealed or do it yourself the neck still has decent hardness. If you don't believe it try to sqeeze a neck oval with your fingers then see how hard it is to do with pliers.

I understand what you are saying if there is less springback the sized diameter would be closer to the bushing or die size. It doesn't really matter because you have to shoot at a target to see what bushing diameter gives the best result. It's an arbitrary process. Harder brass has a higher yield and tensile strength so it should spring back with more force. If you cannot shoot tiny groups you shouldn't see the difference.

 

[Mozella]

Ok, I see your argument. All I know is, from my personal experience, my brass loses neck tension after a few firings if I don't anneal. Annealing helps restore my neck tension. This is not a theory but an observation .......... snip............... I would have to disagree that harder, coldworked brass gives you more tension. Since it has more springback it is less tolerant to resizing.

You're on the right track. If you use a particular bushing to neck size your brass, starting with a soft, annealed case, it will neck down to pretty close to the bushing diameter; i.e. very little spring back. It will be smaller than the bullet by some significant amount. As you continue to fire an size this brass WITHOUT annealing and with THE SAME neck bushing, it will become harder each cycle and it will spring back more as you extract the case from the sizing die.

The result will be larger and larger neck ID each time and, as you have observed, you will have less and less neck tension.

But your last statement needs some clarification to be sure we're talking apples and apples. If two cases, one hard and one soft, are neck sized to the SAME DIAMETER, then the coldworked, hardened, springy case will have MORE neck tension. It will require a smaller neck bushing to achieve a diameter equal to the annealed case of course.

 

[Richard Coody]

You're on the right track. If you use a particular bushing to neck size your brass, starting with a soft, annealed case, it will neck down to pretty close to the bushing diameter; i.e. very little spring back. It will be smaller than the bullet by some significant amount. As you continue to fire an size this brass WITHOUT annealing and with THE SAME neck bushing, it will become harder each cycle and it will spring back more as you extract the case from the sizing die.

The result will be larger and larger neck ID each time and, as you have observed, you will have less and less neck tension.

But your last statement needs some clarification to be sure we're talking apples and apples. If two cases, one hard and one soft, are neck sized to the SAME DIAMETER, then the coldworked, hardened, springy case will have MORE neck tension. It will require a smaller neck bushing to achieve a diameter equal to the annealed case of course.

and just.the opposite.with an expander ball or.expandrel mandrel

 

[Webster]

You're on the right track. If you use a particular bushing to neck size your brass, starting with a soft, annealed case, it will neck down to pretty close to the bushing diameter; i.e. very little spring back. It will be smaller than the bullet by some significant amount. As you continue to fire an size this brass WITHOUT annealing and with THE SAME neck bushing, it will become harder each cycle and it will spring back more as you extract the case from the sizing die.

The result will be larger and larger neck ID each time and, as you have observed, you will have less and less neck tension.

But your last statement needs some clarification to be sure we're talking apples and apples. If two cases, one hard and one soft, are neck sized to the SAME DIAMETER, then the coldworked, hardened, springy case will have MORE neck tension. It will require a smaller neck bushing to achieve a diameter equal to the annealed case of course.

Sizing to a certain diameter is not directly related to some gripping hold on the bullet. The grip on the bullet should relate to at least 6 variables (neck thickness, expansion, sizing, starting hardness, annealing and frequency of annealing. I would guess that any method results in bullet tension more consistent than not annealing.


I think it was the Ken Light website he showed a hardness tester that determined the hardness on a case neck O.D. There is an assumption that annealing returns a case to a certain hardness. It would be interesting to use an accurate annealing machine to anneal, cool, test hardness. Do this three times without sizing the case and firing and anneal, size, hardness and get real data about hardness change. The annealing may be slightly accumulative to a very small degree?


Sorry if this sounds like a pissing match. I think several methods will accomplish the desired result. Just do it the same way each time and evaluate by looking at the target and leave all the metallurgy out of the process.

 

[Mozella]

Sizing to a certain diameter is not directly related to some gripping hold on the bullet. The grip on the bullet should relate to at least 6 variables ..... snip........
...........leave all the metallurgy out of the process

I certainly didn't mean to imply that neck diameter after sizing was the ONLY factor effecting bullet grip. The theoretical example I mentioned was a response to the claim that a work hardened case neck has less spring back. It was not meant to be a complete study of bullet grip nor a lesson on metallurgy.

However, I will stand by my statement that sizing to a particular diameter IS in fact directly related to bullet grip, all other things being equal. If you want more bullet grip, use a smaller neck bushing.

You don't have to know much about metallurgy to experiment with what most of us call "neck tension", but it is important to know that you make brass more springy by work hardening it, not the opposite. If you get that backwards, the road to the world championship gets more rocky.

 

[terraMODA]

I certainly didn't mean to imply that neck diameter after sizing was the ONLY factor effecting bullet grip. The theoretical example I mentioned was a response to the claim that a work hardened case neck has less spring back. It was not meant to be a complete study of bullet grip nor a lesson on metallurgy.

However, I will stand by my statement that sizing to a particular diameter IS in fact directly related to bullet grip, all other things being equal. If you want more bullet grip, use a smaller neck bushing.

You don't have to know much about metallurgy to experiment with what most of us call "neck tension", but it is important to know that you make brass more springy by work hardening it, not the opposite. If you get that backwards, the road to the world championship gets more rocky.

I was confused thinking that more springback would act as an elastic and grip the bullet more. Which is probably true if you resize the hardened cases to be much smaller than the bullet. Since I was getting more neck tension after annealing I mistakenly thought the neck was springing back more to grab the bullet instead of not springing back to a larger, fired neck diameter. Thank you all for clarifying! Fun stuff learning about reloading!

 

[BenPerfected]

My method after firing is deprime, clean brass, anneal (every firing), then FL size.

Use this exact process except I anneal after every 3rd firing. Using .010 neck brass and then sort the loaded rounds by 1x, 2x, 3x, etc.
Ben