When is a gun traded hands?

[Travelor]

It seems to me that when I order something, until I have it in hand is not mine. But I see all the time where the seller is wanting the buyer t o pay for the insuring of an item including a gun.

Example to argue my case: When a seller sends a gun to the purchaser, that person cannot have it until it is transferred to him/her by the receiving FFL.

Bad logic or what?

 

[rkittine]

When you send the money, the seller can not have that either until he or she gets it. Just the way people have gotten used to getting things done, though not everyone. Someone just sent me something that I said I would buy, before my check went out based on the comments on my trade account. You can bet that I send a Good Check to him as promised when promised.

Bob

 

[joshb]

I have pondered this point, myself. I agree that it seems to be the way it's done. 2 parties have things of equal value. A gun or such and a pile of cash. They agree to a trade, essentially, and one party sends his "valuable item", and holds his breath waiting for the other party to send his "valuable item". Some times somebody gets rooked. Sad, but it happens, and it seems there should be a better way.

 

[Hotshot]

If I send hundreds of my dollars to purchase your product, I believe that I should insure the money gets to you and you should insure that your product gets to me.
When I see an ad that states insurance on buyer I never respond because that shows me how much that seller doesn't care once he has my money.

 

[hogpatrol]

If I send hundreds of my dollars to purchase your product, I believe that I should insure the money gets to you and you should insure that your product gets to me.
When I see an ad that states insurance on buyer I never respond because that shows me how much that seller doesn't care once he has my money.

+1 Anything over the minimum, I usually insure. Since insured delivery requires a signature, it also guarantees to the sender that the recipient got the item.

 

[jimcasey01]

Who is required to file a claim with the carrier if it is required? The shipper, not the recipient. The entity with the FFL doing the transfer, has not done any of the transfer until the firearm is received by them, so how could they have caused a transfer to a new owner prior to?

PS If your check is not delivered to the seller by your chosen carrier, who is out, you or the seller. The seller has never received your funds. Same when firearm is shipped. You have not received it until it is in your possession.

 

[CJ6]

My 2 bits is it's a total price thing eg, seller puts an rig up with $3000 as price (his minimum) and asks you to pay shipping/ins (say $150), Now would it have been better of the seller to just ask the $3150 S/I or would that extra $150 back a buyer off the sale (yes either way buyer is paying the $150),but it doesn't look as "good" as asking $3000. You accept the risks of him receiving and vice versa.

 

[rkittine]

This post was also on Benchrest.com and one of the replies was regarding who is the insured. A very good point that I had not thought about. For now on I am going to ask any seller I deal with to send me a note in writing that if I am paying the insurance and the merchandize is lost, that I will be paid the insured about. I have to ship some things on Monday so I will ask UPS is there is a way to have to insured become the consignee instead of the shipper.

Bob

 

[onelastshot]

This post was also on Benchrest.com and one of the replies was regarding who is the insured. A very good point that I had not thought about. For now on I am going to ask any seller I deal with to send me a note in writing that if I am paying the insurance and the merchandize is lost, that I will be paid the insured about. I have to ship some things on Monday so I will ask UPS is there is a way to have to insured become the consignee instead of the shipper.

Bob

Spoke with USPS last week on this subject. The post office manager advised me that when an item is insured, it is the recipient (buyer) that has the obligation to file a claim if an item is lost or damaged.

Regarding the poster's comment, "when is a gun traded hands?" The legal answer is when all of the terms of the parties agreement have been fulfilled. When you buy or sell something you are entering into a contract. Every contract contains certain requirements or provisions. Some contracts are written while others are oral. Until all the terms of the parties agreement have been fulfilled, the contract is not finalized which means the gun isn't yours until all requirements have been met. If you purchase a firearm and send someone a personal check, the contract is not considered complete or finalized until the check is processed and the bank confirms receipt of the funds. If the check bounces, the contract is breached and the seller has a right to demand payment or return of the gun.

 

[Cold Bore]

For now on I am going to ask any seller I deal with to send me a note in writing that if I am paying the insurance and the merchandize is lost, that I will be paid the insured about.

If you buy something from me for $1000, then I ship it to you insured for that $1000 and it is lost, yes, I get the $1000 reimbursement check from the claim.

I would ALSO be returning your $1000, since you didn't receive the item.

You have your money back, and I am out the item (no longer possess for my own use, or to sell and convert to money), so if it is lost/damaged, you think that I should just eat that and give YOU the insurance money too?

Not likely....

 

[rkittine]

No the person sendng you $1,000 should just get his $1,000 back and you should get your $1,000. Everone should net out even with the seller having sold the items paid for in the end by the shipping company paying the claim.

Bob

 

[Dave Berg]

There are escrow services that handle firearms, etc. Buyer sends money to service, seller sends gun to service and the escrow service forwards both when both are received. They will be as thorough and expensive as you want. For example they will evaluate the firearms condition in great detail if you are willing to pay, or give it a quick glance and check the serial number if you're not. It's worth it if you're talking about a $20,000 item.

When I see an ad that states insurance on buyer I never respond because that shows me how much that seller doesn't care once he has my money.

Sorry but you're looking at that the wrong way. If I include the cost of insurance in the shipping some guys will bitch, some will bitch a lot especially once they have it safely in their hands. Insurance with both UPS and USPS is expensive - about 1.5% of the declared value. If I post an add that says insurance optional at buyers expense, which is what I normally do, it's not because I don't care if the buyer gets it but rather does the buyer want to take a chance to save a few bucks. Most of them will unless it's a big ticket item. Once I hand the item to the postal goddess it's out of my control and as well as I pack stuff there are still folks that can break, bend or lose anything. I leave it up to the buyer and any seller who adds insurance at their "own expense" has buried that cost somewhere else. Powder Valley, for example, charges insurance on every order based on the price. You can bet they're not turning that insurance money over to UPS. Bryan's a savvy business man and knows UPS is making a big profit selling insurance so he comes out ahead by building a slush fund in the event something does go missing.

I would like to be able to say that once I turn a firearm over to the shipper it belongs to the buyer but unfortunately I learned the hard way that it's not the case. I have fulfilled my obligations but the deal ain't done yet. I sold a rather expensive rifle to a guy on the left coast, received his payment and shipped it to the FFL. The buyer did not pass the background check and couldn't take possession (domestic violence conviction). He later had a buddy try to pick it up but the dealer was no dummy and wouldn't give it to him either as he knew he lied on the question of "Are you the actual purchaser". Now the FFL has the rifle, I have the money and the buyer is very unhappy and wants all his money back. The FFL can't ship the rifle to me as I'm a non-licensee and legally it's on his books so it has to go to my FFL. It took over a month to get this unscrewed and cost the buyer around $300 in shipping, insurance, FFL fees, GunBroker fees, etc. Of course now he's really unhappy, complains to GunBroker and leaves negative feedback. Takes me another two weeks to get rid of that. It all makes an escrow service seem worthwhile.

 

[rkittine]

I agree that if you handle it one way some people will complain and some people will complain if you hand it another. You are right about the insurance cost. I just shipped two High Value packages via UPS. Both required drop off at UPS or to have a driver sign for them. Not allowed to take to a UPS Store or UPS Franchise Store. Both packages went to the same address in Georgia from New York. One, a Borden Polished Long Action and all the parts and accessories. Package was only 11" x 4" x 4". Easier to loose than a big package. Total cost to ship with $1,800.00 insurance was $38.04. The other package was bigger as it had a Remington 700 S/S SA, bolt and trigger and a PDC Chassis. Declared value of $1,200.00 but in a bigger package, about 35" x 8" x 4" and it was $37.30. In either case, I am happy to know that if they loose it, I will not be out that kind of money. Well worth it to me.

Bob

 

[Cold Bore]

The buyer did not pass the background check and couldn't take possession (domestic violence conviction).

...and the buyer is very unhappy and wants all his money back...

...and cost the buyer around $300 in shipping, insurance, FFL fees, GunBroker fees, etc. Of course now he's really unhappy, ...

HE'S unhappy with YOU, because HE has a domestic violence conviction and should've known that he couldn't pass the background check??

That $300 he ended up paying was his "stupid tax" for even putting himself in the situation in the first place.

 

[rkittine]

Having access to sales ads via the internet has made things so easy while also making them so risky and complicated.

Bob