When does neck tension cease to matter ?

[davidjoe]

I was told by a national champion short range benchrest shooter that if the bullets were seated to the lands neck tension meant little to nothing. Is this true? From your statement above maybe not?? I always thought the case opened up before the bullet moved if loaded in the lands ?

He’s right about not seeing a difference, but you can also throw charges and “mushroom” with a hammer the start of a nail head on a bullet nose and an accurate rifle will still touch or one-hole that bullet with perfect ones - at short range.

But even at long range I think it’s still true that less-than-ridiculous neck tension differences don’t produce noticeable results.

I believe that greater neck tension just means the bullet hit the lands slightly faster, relatively reducing the pressure to engrave the bullet, such that the combined neck and barrel tend to counteract differences in neck tension, round to round.

 

[JimSC]

Well that didn't heip much. For me it is very real. I can see it clearly on the target.

another possibility is adhesion from skin oil, but I was just offering a suggestion. Whatever if you think it is real then it is real. But I can guarantee one thing. The brass is not slowly expanding, that is not something metal does. Ever hear of people shooting ammo that was loaded 60 years ago?

 

[dmoran]

May come off a little harsh here, but can't help but feel that some replying here have either not tested neck tension much at all, or do not have enough accuracy going to see an indifference. Myself typically can see obvious effects (both In & Off the lands) to group size and shape, that in the end of selection also is critically to the ammo/handloads repeatability and/or aggregate capability over time.

 

[JimSC]

Not trying to be degrading, so please consider this helpful criticism, but if my competition rifle shot like that at 300, I would be either fixing the load or looking at the rifle, bullets, brass prep for reasons why it shot that big.

I also had a factory 6br savage rifle, and it would consistently hold an inch at 300. I've shot many 200-300--500y ground hog matches with it.

and you have no idea what the environment was like the day I was shooting those. I have had 5 shot groups in the .3's at 300 and a group at 600 I won't mention because there was no witness and everyone would think I was the biggest liar on the board. BTW I am not hellbent on disproving annealing helps, quite the opposite. I am hoping someone can prove to me it does so I can finally order a Amp without buyers remorse. I don't sweat benchrest group sizes, I am a lot more concerned with getting 20 in the ten ring

 

[CharlieNC]

and you have no idea what the environment was like the day I was shooting those. I have had 5 shot groups in the 3's at 300. BTW I am not hellbent on disproving annealing helps, quite the opposite. I am hoping someone can prove to me it does so I can finaly order a Amp without buyers remorse

In the last year there have been plenty of threads where any number of folks, including myself, have reported personal experience noting improvements from annealing. I don't think you are going to get anything new to convince you any more. In my case I proved annealing resolved seating depth and force problems I was experiencing, but didn't think it necessary to evaluate on a target since the issues were so aggregious.

 

[Bc'z]

I personally have seen the benefits of annealing vs not.
Before I started annealing I've noticed memory and spring back that forced me to use a smaller bushing to achieve bullet hold.

In testing I've noticed the difference in charge weights between loads where I sized brass
With a .001 difference in bushing selection.
The loads with .001 more neck tension showed pressure signs faster, and accuracy was not as good.
I've also seen a more consistent set back of shoulders by annealing than not.
Just a bit of my experience in this.

 

[dgeesaman]

Now, if someone can tell us what that point is that would be helpful.

It’s exactly midway between not a lot and too much.

David

 

[davidjoe]

These days I’ve got a pretty “meat and potatoes” approach to accuracy. Don’t let the barrels go bad during a match, always try to improve wind skills, and figure out a way to get a BC edge - long barrel, long bullets and RE 25.

Brass gets loaded from the box, bullets get tipped but otherwise just loaded. Reloaded brass gets top-of-neck sized and wet tumbled as needed. It really couldn’t be simpler but for me it works. Not trying to skip steps, it’s that things I don’t do didn’t show up on the target.

This 600 yard group the other day is about 3/4 of an inch tall at centers, forming “blind” on paper in the slow mirage with a constant hold on a 3 inch disk. The shape is merely the pattern of the particular range’s breeze, and probably would have all touched a nickel if still.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Neck tension always matters. In or off the lands. While its true the neck brass will yield at some point going beyond that still shows change on target. If your not testing neck tension on target at the distance you shoot, your shorting yourself. You cant figure this stuff out in theory, at the loading bench, or online, it has to be done at the range.

 

[bozo699]

Neck tension always matters. In or off the lands. While its true the neck brass will yield at some point going beyond that still shows change on target. If your not testing neck tension on target at the distance you shoot, your shorting yourself. You cant figure this stuff out in theory, at the loading bench, or online, it has to be done at the range.

Well put and so true Alex.
Wayne

 

[ebb]

Thank you Donavan and Alex. I see so many different ideas in the real world, I have no idea what is right and what is wrong. Just an example, I was at Manatee back some years ago and all the locals(some shoot really good) were singing the praises of this new tool that would fix loaded ammo that had run out. It was this big machined piece of aluminum that you inserted the loaded ammo in and bent the neck of the case until it eliminated run out. Everybody over there was sold on this device. Someone in the pro shop gave me the sales pitch. They would over bend then bend it back some times took 2, 3, or 4 tries to get it right. Didn't seem right to me so I passed, now no one will even admit to ever having owned one. I wish there was a way to eliminate all the BS from the truth. Ive been so unsure what to do in my reloading and case prep I just touch the lands,weigh on a charge master, pick the best bullet I can afford and when I need more ask the gunsmith to build me some thing better.

 

[4xforfun]

When does neck tension cease to matter ?

The instant the bullet leaves the case mouth.

 

[wbm]

And there ya have it!