What's the next greatest rifle chambering?

[Wild Bill IV]

Do you think there was enough of an advantage to electronic priming for someone to try to improve on it and bring it back? What about a new style of priming?

Those days are long gone due to skyjackings and terrorism!!! The new technology in those days was to make caseless cartridges with piezoelectric ignition of plastic explosives!! The British ammo manufacturers were loading sticks of Cordite in place of smokeless powders!!! That ammo was quickly confiscated by governments after finding some skyjackers using those plastics explosive for bombs!!!

That era could have turned the firearms industry upside down, but others decided to use that technology for killing people!!!

 

[Wild Bill IV]

It would be ballistically very close to the 280 ai. Its already being used by some for hunting. While it is popular in F Class, you cant even compare it to the popularity of something like the 6.5 prc.

You're dead on!!!

A knowledgeable reloader will use slow burning powders(mid magnum burn rate) in the smaller internal diameter, longer 280AI cases shooting heavy for caliber bullets!! That reloader also knows to reload with really slow to the slowest MAG powders for the larger internal diameter, short 7/6.5PRCW utilizing heavy for caliber bullets!! You, yourself ALEX, have stated N570 is awesome powder, the slowest burn rate VV powder!! I will be testing N568 for my 6.5PRC!!! The 2nd slowest burn rate powder in the VV powder line!!!! Wished Sierra would come out with a 264 caliber, 160-165 SBT bullet for my 7" twist Browning X-Bolt LR Max!!!

Presently, there is no IDEAL CARTRIDGE that fits all shooting sport curriculum and all shooters!!! Some hunters can handle heavy recoil and are expert LR hunters while others that think they can handle those heavy recoil develops bad shooting skills and habits!!!

Same holds true for LR target which is small arms artillery!!!! Yeah, ya drop the bullets into the target at ranges at, or exceeding 1K yards!!!

Each curriculum will have shooters that hate recoil and choose to shoot medium to light capacity cartridges while others know how to control heavy recoil, maintaining expert trigger skills, and hit the mark almost all the time!!!

Women hunters tend to avoid heavy recoil!! I personally liked shooting 160 in 7-08 but developed 130-140 for the wife!!! She hated the recoil of the 160s!!!

It is ironic in the evolution of cartridge and there uses have come full circle on bottlenecks since the late 1800s and early 1900s to the present day!!! 200gr RN in the 30-03 Springfield and 160gr RN in 6.5x55 Swede back then!!! Then, the era of speed with much lighter bullet, but higher BC design!! Now, the LR hunter, LR target shooter, and military is willing to give speed for heavy for caliber, high BC, low drag bullets!!!

"Death Alley" is the new era mentality!!!

Bill!!!!!!

 

[kojaone]

My old gun plumber always said,the hardest hunting rifle to build, is one for a small woman or youth.I sold my wife's 25-06 remy years ago.Got her a Savage 7-08 ultralight 20" ,to much recoil she says,got a clamp on brake,now it's to noisy.Next,a new stock and 22" 25 creedmore barrel.
My 17.5" XP-100 25 creedmore with 131-135 is on par ballistically with my 26" 6.5 creedmoor, 140's

 

[J Fess]

The cases that could not handle modern day smokeless powders were imported and could have had the BERDAN PRIMERS AND PRIMER POCKETS!!! But, the really old military cartridges which used the old smokeless powder were designed for lower chamber pressures are long gone!!! The really corrosive mercury primers used in those days dissolved the brass and surplus was demilled with the brass being recycled!!!

Interesting!. I had not heard about the mercury primers and suspected that the cases were just made to handle the original pressure (+ safety factor). The main reason I have read for keeping the pressure down* for the 7x57 and later, the 257 Roberts was the that the strength of the pre-1900 Mausers chambered in them were suspect, especially the m1893. Even today, the SAAMI MAP for the 8x57 is 37,000 psi CUP, lower than the 30-30 for goodness sake.
It seemed that many in the US just didn't trust them furrin' guns from the old days and only had faith in modern guns.... ones made after 1900!

* "nerfed" is what I think today's cool kids would call it (according to my children)

 

[dellet]

The only problem with calling the 7x57 case weak and even worse using primers with mercury, is that the 257 Robert’s was developed using the same components people live in fear of using today.

Interestingly enough the cartridge was developed using a Stevens 44 1/2 action, designed more for Black powder pressures. It was certainly used for early smokeless powders, but no cartridges with a base diameter larger than .420”.

As someone who shoots many antiques, using antique brass, most failures are due to action strength, not brass strength. One big problem was lack of pressure relief ports in case something did go wrong.

Most old brass is also much thicker at the base than modern brass, this was needed due to less hoop strength often found in early smokeless era actions.

Any one who has truly studied wildcatting in the between war era, would have an idea of how hard many of these weak cases and rifles were pushed without catastrophic events.

I would venture to say that, shooting the old stuff now 100 years later, is much safer than in the day. The powder choices and information available with products like quickload, making it easy to predict pressures is a godsend.

Like most things in shooting sports, wildcatting or even simple reloading, is only as safe as the operator.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

Interesting!. I had not heard about the mercury primers and just suspected that the cases were just made to handle the original pressure (+ safety factor). The main reason I have read for keeping the pressure down* for the 7x57 and later, the 257 Roberts was the that the strength of the pre-1900 Mausers chambered in them were suspect, especially the m1893. Even today, the SAAMI MAP for the 8x57 is 37,000 psi CUP, lower than the 30-30 for goodness sake.
It seemed that many in the US just didn't trust them furrin' guns from the old days and only had faith in modern guns.... ones made after 1900!

* "nerfed" is what I think today's cool kids would call it (according to my children)

You're right!!! Another prime example is the small ring Mauser rifles!!! The Swedish M1896, M38, and M94!!! I have seen, and shot a few that were rechambered for 22-250, 243, 308 Winchester, etc!!! All high pressure cartridges!!! The Standard 6.5x55 military issued rounds where around 46000 to 47000 PSI with a 139gr BT!!!

But, in 1963, the factory that made most of those military rifles, pulled surplus rifles and made an open sight, 29.5" long barrel target rifle called the Model 63 GUSTAF!!! They were made for mainly 300 and 600 meter International target competition!!! I have one, very rare, made with the 1st lot of M1896s actions made in Germany (STAMPED 1900). They later, made the Model 80 for England and it was chambered in the 308 Win!!! If a small ring Mauser can handle that kind of pressure, the large ring SHOULD handle 55000!!! Have a qualified gunsmith check the action before shooting these rifles!!!

Even some Springfield M1903xxx variants in a certain Serial Number range, should be avoided from firing or rechambered due to a bad hardening process of the receiver!!!

The bad reputation of the military surplus Mauser rifle is that some rifles were damaged in war time, or improperly stored (Carbon Steel tends to pit when exposed to water and/or corrosives such a mercury residue from the primers and powder residue), and were not safe to shoot at any pressure and made there way into the USA and into other countries!!

The Mauser rifle design was stolen by our Military, other countries, and most American and some foreign rifle manufacturers!!! The Mauser Bothers were the true inventors of the bottleneck bolt action rifle!!!! Paul Mauser tends to get most of the glory!!!!

Bill!!!!!

Historic Note: All the Swedish Mauser rifle stocks were submerged into BOILING linseed oil!!! Not coated with BOILED linseed oil!!! Boiled linseed oil has fast acting hardeners added to the linseed!! The dunking process basically fried the wood by displacing the water with the oil!!! Much harder stock and less susceptible to warping or bending!!!

 

[Laurie]

Even today, the SAAMI MAP for the 8x57 is 37,000 psi CUP, lower than the 30-30 for goodness sake.

The reason for that are surplus German/Austrian military rifles and also some WW2 'liberated' riflesmith built sporters. The original 7.9X57 ('I' or in US parlance 'J') Mauser used a 0.317-inch groove diameter bore. The later 7.92X57 IS / JS has a larger bore and its chamber was much more generously throated, both reducing pressures. Throw in that the original German 7.9 service rifle, the M1888 'Commission' model has a relatively weak action compared to the later G1898/KAR98 Mauser actions and it became potentially unsafe to use 7.92 IS/JS cartridges and loads in these earlier models, many of which were sold in the USA on the surplus rifle market. Just to confuse things further, many German gunsmiths preferred the lighter but weaker 'small ring' Mauser actions to the stronger but heavier '98 'large ring' design and for some inexplicable reason continued to use the tighter I/J bore size barrels in their deer rifle builds. This continued until WW2, and many US servicemen brought these very nice, lightweight rifles home as war trophies.

In Europe, commercial ammunition can be either version and users are expected to know what action strength and bore type they have. Likewise, handloaders. The USA IIRC also did this a long time ago, but after accidents involving incorrect use of IS/JS cartridges, especially the once plentiful and very cheap but heavily loaded surplus sS heavy ball military round. This was adopted in the 1930s alongside the KAR98k rifle, and the standard German ball rifle and MG round of WW2 (and many other nations until the self-loading rifle era).

Women hunters tend to avoid heavy recoil!! I personally liked shooting 160 in 7-08 but developed 130-140 for the wife!!! She hated the recoil of the 160s!!!

A long, long time ago UK gunsmith Norman Clark built himself a lightweight .308X1.5-inch Barnes chambered fox/light deer rifle built on a small-ring ex military Mauser action. With 125gn Ballistic Tips, it fulfilled both roles well. He loaned it to a lady deerstalker friend who was so taken by its low weight and very modest recoil, she eventually persuaded him to sell it to her, but he insisted on the condition that she sold it back to him if she ever disposed of it. This eventually occurred and when she retired, it returned to Norman who showed it to me around 20 years ago. A little jewel of a rifle that Norman said was very accurate, and ideal for our small roedeer which max out at around 70lb undressed weight. Modern equivalents might be 6.5 Grendel and .30 RAR.

 

[Laurie]

But, in 1963, the factory that made most of those military rifles, pulled surplus rifles and made an open sight, 29.5" long barrel target rifle called the Model 63 GUSTAF!!! They were made for mainly 300 and 600 meter International target competition!!! I have one, very rare, made with the 1st lot of M1896s actions made in Germany (STAMPED 1900). They later, made the Model 80 for England and it was chambered in the 308 Win!!! If a small ring Mauser can handle that kind of pressure, the large ring SHOULD handle 55000!!!

The CG63 conversions with Swedish 600M match sights were made in both 6.5X55 (mainly for Scandinavian match shooters) and 7.62 for domestic shooters entering international matches. The 6,5X55 versions are very rare in the UK, but is I believe still common in Sweden. Their1990s replacement was the SIG-Sauer STR200 as the CGs were very old and spares became an issue. Parker-Hale in the UK distributed considerable numbers of 7.62s for our 'Target Rifle' discipline fitted with the P-H 5c aperture match rearsight and a tunnel foresight, with a turned-down bolt-handle. They were designated CG63E, 'E' for England and also went to other British Commonwealth countries, so there should still be examples in Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc. They're still common here as a cheap starter range rifle, but their barrels are mostly long shot-out. I used one for several years in the 80s in club level 'Target Rifle' - fine rifle, but primitive compared to the Musgrave and SWING / Paramounts that were the norm in UK high-level and even club 'TR' by then. The CG80 was a specialised match rifle built in 6.5X55 by the Carl Gustaf arsenal for competition use by the Frivilliga Skytterolesen (FSR the Swedish Volunteers Shooters Association), and as per the CG63 was fitted with Swedish Soderin 600M diopter match sights and also as per the CG63 retained the straight-out Mauser M1896 bolt-handle.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

The reason for that are surplus German/Austrian military rifles and also some WW2 'liberated' riflesmith built sporters. The original 7.9X57 ('J' or in US parlance 'I') Mauser used a 0.317-inch groove diameter bore. The later 7.92X57 IS / JS has a larger bore and its chamber was much more generously throated, both reducing pressures. Throw in that the original German 7.9 service rifle, the M1888 'Commission' model has a relatively weak action compared to the later G1898/KAR98 Mauser actions and it became potentially unsafe to use 7.92 IS/JS cartridges and loads in these earlier models, many of which were sold in the USA on the surplus rifle market. Just to confuse things further, many German gunsmiths preferred the lighter but weaker 'small ring' Mauser actions to the stronger but heavier '98 'large ring' design and for some inexplicable reason continued to use the tighter I/J bore size barrels in their deer rifle builds. This continued until WW2, and many US servicemen brought these very nice, lightweight rifles home as war trophies.

In Europe, commercial ammunition can be either version and users are expected to know what action strength and bore type they have. Likewise, handloaders. The USA IIRC also did this a long time ago, but after accidents involving incorrect use of IS/JS cartridges, especially the once plentiful and very cheap but heavily loaded surplus sS heavy ball military round. This was adopted in the 1930s alongside the KAR98k rifle, and the standard German ball rifle and MG round of WW2 (and many other nations until the self-loading rifle era).



A long, long time ago UK gunsmith Norman Clark built himself a lightweight .308X1.5-inch Barnes chambered fox/light deer rifle built on a small-ring ex military Mauser action. With 125gn Ballistic Tips, it fulfilled both roles well. He loaned it to a lady deerstalker friend who was so taken by its low weight and very modest recoil, she eventually persuaded him to sell it to her, but he insisted on the condition that she sold it back to him if she ever disposed of it. This eventually occurred and when she retired, it returned to Norman who showed it to me around 20 years ago. A little jewel of a rifle that Norman said was very accurate, and ideal for our small roedeer which max out at around 70lb undressed weight. Modern equivalents might be 6.5 Grendel and .30 RAR.

Very true and thank you for correcting me on CG (CARL GUSTAF)!!!! And yes, the CG63E was the 7.62 variant of the CROWN JEWEL OF SWEDEN!!! The CG80 was a more rigid stock with a curve butt stock and plate!!! My bed!!! There were other variants of experimental models and shooting disciplines!!!

My CG63 still has an Excellent grade barrel and bears the German name "OBERNBORF" on the reciever!!!! I got it before the importer invasion of shot out CG63s, mismatched parts, and clones thereof!!! I have seen 1900 stamped CG63s and they were all clones used to con buyers of that rare conversion!!!! Only seen one other true 1900 receiver CG63 conversion!!!

For all interested members, The 1st SWEDISH small ring Mausers were made in Germany (approximately 100,000 rifles) with balance of around 6 million made in Sweden!!! The most wanted Swedish surplus rifles was the turned down bolt M38 for conversions!!! The collectors wanted the rare OBERNDORF rifles!!!!

But, there is one American rifle manufacturer that started its claim to fame through military rifle conversions of the small ring Mausers for the civilian shooting sports!!!

That company is KIMBER!!!!

Bill!!!!!

 

[Bottom Fodder]

Maybe the next great will be an electric rechargeable cartridge that after you fire it put in a recharge station and recharge it and it wouldn’t deplete the ozone

 

[Wild Bill IV]

Maybe the next great will be an electric rechargeable cartridge that after you fire it put in a recharge station and recharge it and it wouldn’t deplete the ozone

Rail guns technology is a long ways from being practical in the field or the range!!!!!

Love the GREENIE JOKE!!!!!

 

[GotRDid]

You're right!!! Another prime example is the small ring Mauser rifles!!! The Swedish M1896, M38, and M94!!! I have seen, and shot a few that were rechambered for 22-250, 243, 308 Winchester, etc!!! All high pressure cartridges!!! The Standard 6.5x55 military issued rounds where around 46000 to 47000 PSI with a 139gr BT!!!

But, in 1963, the factory that made most of those military rifles, pulled surplus rifles and made an open sight, 29.5" long barrel target rifle called the Model 63 GUSTAF!!! They were made for mainly 300 and 600 meter International target competition!!! I have one, very rare, made with the 1st lot of M1896s actions made in Germany (STAMPED 1900). They later, made the Model 80 for England and it was chambered in the 308 Win!!! If a small ring Mauser can handle that kind of pressure, the large ring SHOULD handle 55000!!! Have a qualified gunsmith check the action before shooting these rifles!!!

Even some Springfield M1903xxx variants in a certain Serial Number range, should be avoided from firing or rechambered due to a bad hardening process of the receiver!!!

The bad reputation of the military surplus Mauser rifle is that some rifles were damaged in war time, or improperly stored (Carbon Steel tends to pit when exposed to water and/or corrosives such a mercury residue from the primers and powder residue), and were not safe to shoot at any pressure and made there way into the USA and into other countries!!

The Mauser rifle design was stolen by our Military, other countries, and most American and some foreign rifle manufacturers!!! The Mauser Bothers were the true inventors of the bottleneck bolt action rifle!!!! Paul Mauser tends to get most of the glory!!!!

Bill!!!!!

Historic Note: All the Swedish Mauser rifle stocks were submerged into BOILING linseed oil!!! Not coated with BOILED linseed oil!!! Boiled linseed oil has fast acting hardeners added to the linseed!! The dunking process basically fried the wood by displacing the water with the oil!!! Much harder stock and less susceptible to warping or bending!!!

Well, the treatment of the stock sure explains the durability of the finish discovered under decades of grime when my Friend (Cabinet Maker) agreed to clean her up for me.
1904 Carl Gustaf…..

 

[358WCF]

shortened 284 necked to .25 cal

Ken Markle, of K&M fame, did one of these back in the early 90s. It was basically scaled up PPC dimensions before really good 284 brass was available.

 

[Wild Bill IV]

Well, the treatment of the stock sure explains the durability of the finish discovered under decades of grime when my Friend (Cabinet Maker) agreed to clean her up for me.
1904 Carl Gustaf…..

View attachment 1593308

Very nice antique!!! 1904, American Walnut and Mediterranean Walnut was the wood specified stock until 1927!!! You have a very fine American Walnut stock!! Totally beautiful would!!!

Is it all matching numbers less the cleaning rod number????

 

[Wild Bill IV]

The CG63 conversions with Swedish 600M match sights were made in both 6.5X55 (mainly for Scandinavian match shooters) and 7.62 for domestic shooters entering international matches. The 6,5X55 versions are very rare in the UK, but is I believe still common in Sweden. Their1990s replacement was the SIG-Sauer STR200 as the CGs were very old and spares became an issue. Parker-Hale in the UK distributed considerable numbers of 7.62s for our 'Target Rifle' discipline fitted with the P-H 5c aperture match rearsight and a tunnel foresight, with a turned-down bolt-handle. They were designated CG63E, 'E' for England and also went to other British Commonwealth countries, so there should still be examples in Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc. They're still common here as a cheap starter range rifle, but their barrels are mostly long shot-out. I used one for several years in the 80s in club level 'Target Rifle' - fine rifle, but primitive compared to the Musgrave and SWING / Paramounts that were the norm in UK high-level and even club 'TR' by then. The CG80 was a specialised match rifle built in 6.5X55 by the Carl Gustaf arsenal for competition use by the Frivilliga Skytterolesen (FSR the Swedish Volunteers Shooters Association), and as per the CG63 was fitted with Swedish Soderin 600M diopter match sights and also as per the CG63 retained the straight-out Mauser M1896 bolt-handle.

Lurie:

I bought my CG ($1400, dealer wanted $1600 and also had 3 very nice Springfield M1903A4 SNIPERS) in 1990 and 3 M1996s (one cheap mismatched at $75, one nice mismatched at $125, and a really cruddy looking all matching rifle for $175) at a 2K table gunshow!!!

I shot the CG only once at 600yd with S&B cheap ammo and was amazed at its accuracy!!! My question for you is this: WHAT VELOCITY IS BEST FOR MATCHING RANGE SETTINGS FOR THE REAR SIGHT ADJUSTMENT???? BC??? WEIGHT???

I have only put 3 round through the CG but was really impressed with the accuracy!!! You know more about shooting that rifle than I do, and you are more a neighbor to Sweden than us folks across the pond!!!!

Want to save time (nearing 69 now) and money in load development!!!

THANK YOU!!!
Bill!!!!!!!

 

[J Fess]

Presently, there is no IDEAL CARTRIDGE that fits all shooting sport curriculum and all shooters!!! Some hunters can handle heavy recoil and are expert LR hunters while others that think they can handle those heavy recoil develops bad shooting skills and habits!!!

The move to heavier for caliber bullets has the disadvantage to increasing recoil. Until a few years ago, improving bullet tech had allowed a switch to one size smaller cartridge and reduced recoil for hunting. Now with the move to heavier bullets, the recoil has gone back up to what it had been before the switch.

It is ironic in the evolution of cartridge and there uses have come full circle on bottlenecks since the late 1800s and early 1900s to the present day!!! 200gr RN in the 30-03 Springfield and 160gr RN in 6.5x55 Swede back then!!! Then, the era of speed with much lighter bullet, but higher BC design!!

Good point. With round-nose bullets, the only way to increase BC was to add length and mass. The switch to more streamlined designs allowed lighter bullets to match or exceed the BC of the heavy round-nosed ones. In the decades before the hunter's laser rangefinder, fast and flat had become the goal. Now that determining the accurate range to the target is possible, fast and flat had switched back to heavier and sleeker.

 

[RustyPin]

I'm hoping for a resurgence in 2.6" OAL cartridges like the 300 Savage. Which to me would make the best folding back-pack hunting Rifle OAL. 6mm-400 Legend is coming soon we hope in 2.6" OAL.

The first Manufacturer to bring a Cartridge to market in a box and ready to shoot gets to claim it as theirs. They're almost all stolen from someone else as the individual doesn't have the resources to bring his designs to market. (if you're lucky you might get to name it, but you won't see a red cent)

The 6-ARC currently is the largest capacity case that can be fired in an AR-15 in 6mm hence it's popularity. Although the 6mm-6.8-SPC variants I prefer yet none have been offered on the shelf in box form.

Oh and Ackley didn't have access to todays long high BC modern projectiles so I'd consider his information extremely outdated and giving him credit for improving cartridges is a stretch of the imagination.

 

[J Fess]

I think that the 277 Fury COULD be the Next Greatest Rifle Chambering but SIG has so far blown the introduction. There are virtually no civilian rifles to use it.
The 277 Fury has three distinct uses:
- The first is 270 Win performance when using the high-pressure ammo from a 16" barrel, giving a compact suppressed woods rifle.

-The second and third are combined when used as a "Dual Purpose Hunting Rifle" with a 22" or so barrel.
With the less expensive brass cased ammo and below 65Kpsi pressures, it is an excellent traditional-range hunting cartridge. Performance would be near the 270-08 AI or 7mm-08. FWIW, the 277 Fury case has less taper, sharper shoulder and shorter neck than the SAAMI 7mm-08 case, increasing its propellant volume.

- With the high-pressure ammo, it is a short magnum with performance matching the 270 WSM. The expensive hybrid ammo increases the power for longer ranges or larger game like elk. When I worked in NC, one of my friends had never shot a deer at over 150 yards in 40 years of hunting, but had traded his 270 in for a 7mm Rem Mag as a "just in case I ever go hunting Out West" rifle. He admitted to hating the blast and recoil of the 7 Rem Mag, but seemed to be afraid of downloading it. I bet he would have been just fine hunting with the brass cased 277 Fury ammo and had a box or two of the expensive stuff for that Trip Out West.

There are numerous rifle actions that can handle the pressure and bolt thrust. Since the case is the same diameter as a 308, bolt thrust is not excessive when compared to existing larger diameter magnum cartridges. Bolt thrust (max case dia x max chamber pressure) at 80,000psi is lower than that of any of the fatter short magnum (PRC, WSM, RCM or SAUM) cartridges. The smaller diameter case allows thicker barrel walls compared to those other short magnums too. It is possible that other issues, like the rapid rise to max pressure, and wear of the steel case-head against the barrel might be issues, but I have not found any discussions about it.

 

[RustyPin]

The Technology that the FURY brings to market is the big deal. As the Case shape and dimensions are altered from traditional "08" cases & intended for very short projectiles in the 2.8" short action AR10-SR25 Magazines. Just take a look at the Case Taper, as a very successful modern wildcatter will be the first to tell you that design grabs the sides of the chamber hence reducing bolts thrust. Add to this the two piece Case which primarily offers a much stronger material to hold primers. Lastly as I mentioned before, the base is enhanced to offer more capacity for powder. So hopefully manufacturers will be quick to offer this Case type in current offerings (6.5-Creedmoor).

 

[CJ6]

The Technology that the FURY brings to market is the big deal. As the Case shape and dimensions are altered from traditional "08" cases & intended for very short projectiles in the 2.8" short action AR10-SR25 Magazines. Just take a look at the Case Taper, as a very successful modern wildcatter will be the first to tell you that design grabs the sides of the chamber hence reducing bolts thrust. Add to this the two piece Case which primarily offers a much stronger material to hold primers. Lastly as I mentioned before, the base is enhanced to offer more capacity for powder. So hopefully manufacturers will be quick to offer this Case type in current offerings (6.5-Creedmoor).

Have you tried to size a bi-metal case?