I've been reloading only a 223 with 90vld's for the last year and a half. It's tough getting a low es all the time and keeping the load in tune from the late winter to mid summer. I wasn't sure if my chrono was working correctly half the time. I took my new Panda/Bartlein 308 to the range the other day and every load had a very good es, even the ones that didn't shoot that good, but it felt like I was shooting a howitzer. The 223 can be frustrating but man it sure is fun to shoot.
What's the lowest SD you can get with 223?
- Thread starter ashiha
- Start date
So my question is what's the reasons you do not like the pp 2000?I have varget,xbr 8208,pp2000,and rl 15.I think I will play with Varget and see what happens,like I said pp2000 bug holes at 100yd just haven't had a chance to stretch it.
It will bughole and give some incredible speeds now.... then two months from now you will drive a long way to a match for 2 shots with 2 blown primers. I'm telling you from experience!!
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Like some other ball powders, PP2000MR can give almost unbelievable velocities. However, that can also come at a cost of pressure issues if used in locales where large daily (or seasonal) temperature swings are common. I also know a couple people that have experienced blown primers using it on days when the mercury started out in the low 60s, but crept up into the 90s for the 2nd/3rd match of the day.
Inquiring minds want to know. Are you willing to reveal how you get such low SDs and ESs with .223 ammo? I recently made a disappointing batch of ammo loaded for my Sunday "fun" range gun, a Howa-1500, with five-shot SDs averaging around 43 and a worst of 115. I decided it was because I was trying CCI-450 magnum primers for the first time in my .223 reloads. The other day I made a batch of 60 rounds in a specific effort to improve my SD numbers. I used my normal BR-4 primers and shot five shot groups with an average SD of 26, a best of 4.87 and a worst of 52.94. This isn't great, but it's a big improvement over the results using magnum primers.
I consider it acceptable for "fun" ammo. However, I actually used my best reloading techniques weighing the powder charge to .02gr. The components weren't my best, but they weren't junk either and included Sierra MK bullets rather than Berger and well prepared Lake City brass rather than Lapua. I expected, or at least hoped for, better results. I'm still disappointed that I can't get most of my SDs below 15 or perhaps even less.
I'd like to know your secret.
Again, a plot of SD vs MOA showed no correlation. In fact, the worst SD gave the smallest group.............. sigh.
2016-04-13_050859You guys have no idea how good it is for me to see that I'm not alone in this. It has been something that was constantly in the back of my mind for over a year now. I'm the first shooter in my family or friends and have had to learn everything first hand. This meant a lot of reading, watching videos, asking questions, and throwing money at the problem until I thought I had a general understanding of what was going on. But to run into this issue that just won't go away was something else entirely.
223 is a fun caliber to load and shoot, but it doesn't seem to act normally.
Hi,
I myself have been trying to get low es and sd numbers down in my sons 223 best I can do is an es of 18 and sd of 9 with a mv of 2900 fps it bugholes at 100yd going to test at 400yd this weekend.
Im using 80 noslers
24.7 ADI 2208/ VARGET
lapua brass
cci 450 primers.
I havnt tried different primers yet but what I found was as I increased neck tension numbers started to come down still playing with this but what Im reading in this thread I maybe chasing my tail.
Cheers Trev.
I myself have been trying to get low es and sd numbers down in my sons 223 best I can do is an es of 18 and sd of 9 with a mv of 2900 fps it bugholes at 100yd going to test at 400yd this weekend.
Im using 80 noslers
24.7 ADI 2208/ VARGET
lapua brass
cci 450 primers.
I havnt tried different primers yet but what I found was as I increased neck tension numbers started to come down still playing with this but what Im reading in this thread I maybe chasing my tail.
Cheers Trev.
eric n
Silver $$ Contributor
Mozella...
Lapua brass turned to .0125, sized with .246 bushing.
PP uniformed.
Weighed with fx 120 to 1 or 2 kernels.
90smk cbto .002 or less
varget
cci 450
Solidly in a powder charge node.... and its small.
I DON'T have a lot of experience with these 90s so take it for what its worth... free.
Also,I very well may be throwing some whoppers up, I don't use the chrony very much. Only for load development and to diagnose problems.
I have a lot of experience with the 80vld.
Es of 20 on a good day, 40 on a bad day. It flat out hammers in good conditions @ 600
Forgot to add... Tumbled in walnut and necks are left alone, no anneal or brush
Lapua brass turned to .0125, sized with .246 bushing.
PP uniformed.
Weighed with fx 120 to 1 or 2 kernels.
90smk cbto .002 or less
varget
cci 450
Solidly in a powder charge node.... and its small.
I DON'T have a lot of experience with these 90s so take it for what its worth... free.
Also,I very well may be throwing some whoppers up, I don't use the chrony very much. Only for load development and to diagnose problems.
I have a lot of experience with the 80vld.
Es of 20 on a good day, 40 on a bad day. It flat out hammers in good conditions @ 600
Forgot to add... Tumbled in walnut and necks are left alone, no anneal or brush
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Measure some of those 90 smk's base to ogive and see what you get. Have a barf bag handy when you do though.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Inquiring minds want to know. Are you willing to reveal how you get such low SDs and ESs with .223 ammo? I recently made a disappointing batch of ammo loaded for my Sunday "fun" range gun, a Howa-1500, with five-shot SDs averaging around 43 and a worst of 115. I decided it was because I was trying CCI-450 magnum primers for the first time in my .223 reloads. The other day I made a batch of 60 rounds in a specific effort to improve my SD numbers. I used my normal BR-4 primers and shot five shot groups with an average SD of 26, a best of 4.87 and a worst of 52.94. This isn't great, but it's a big improvement over the results using magnum primers.
I consider it acceptable for "fun" ammo. However, I actually used my best reloading techniques weighing the powder charge to .02gr. The components weren't my best, but they weren't junk either and included Sierra MK bullets rather than Berger and well prepared Lake City brass rather than Lapua. I expected, or at least hoped for, better results. I'm still disappointed that I can't get most of my SDs below 15 or perhaps even less.
I'd like to know your secret.
Again, a plot of SD vs MOA showed no correlation. In fact, the worst SD gave the smallest group.............. sigh.
FWIW - in my hands, getting the ES down to the mid/upper teens for .223 using 80.5 and 90 gr bullets has not required anything secret or special. I'm very careful with brass prep, and I use the Redding Type S Match bushing dies with a Rock Chucker press. I have been using 2-2.5 thousandths neck tension on Lapua brass. I use Fed 205 primers (not 205M), so nothing special there. I don't neck turn, having "no-turn neck" chambers. I do weigh powder to approximately +/- half a kernel on an analytical balance, but this is probably grossly excessive. You can calculate the velocity spread that tight a range of powder weight accuracy will give and it's about 1 fps. I can't even measure velocity that accurately with my chronograph.
I think there are possibly some other reasons that people might struggle with getting low ES/SD values for .223 loads, that don't necessarily have anything to do with their reloading technique per se. I do believe it's important to weigh powder as precisely as possible in the small case, but it's also important that the charge weight itself be optimized, as well as the choice of powders. That is where I think actual load development may come into play.
Powders tend to exhibit optimal burn characteristics at slightly under MAX pressure. Selecting the right powder for the job includes thinking about barrel length, projectile weight, powder burn rate, and operating temperatures, to name a few things. Further, ensuring through proper load development and testing that you have, in fact, really "optimized" the charge weight is also critical. This cannot always be done solely by looking at group spread. It's also important to use velocity determination as part of that equation. Finally, even when the average velocity and short-range precision seem right where they need to be, it is possible for a load to exhibit poor ES/SD values.
In that event, it's probably a good idea to test different primers that cover a range of brisance. Sometimes, using a different primer can make all the difference in the world in ES/SD, even though the other load parameters may not change much. Some primers are simply better suited to some powders that are burning at a specific rate, which is largely dictated by the cartridge/bullet/barrel, etc. So if your ES is high, but everything else looks positive, try a different primer, it might help.
Edited to add one more thing about chronographs. I currently use a MagnetoSpeed. There are certain sub-optimal considerations that go along with that, but in general I have been very happy with it. I used to use a light sensor type chronograph. My experience with that was that the readings could vary significantly depending on ambient light (i.e. sunny vs cloudy), as well as exactly where the bullet passed over the sensor. At times, the chronograph would give a reading for a shot that I'm pretty sure was off, because of where the bullet passed over the sensor, or that perhaps a cloud went overhead. So it's also worth noting the possibility that the chronograph type and brand can potentially affect your readings. In other words, it may not always be the load. This can be tested using two chronographs at the same time, or just by using a different chronograph for identically loaded rounds. In any event, you want to be sure your chronograph is giving you true readings before embarking on a potentially extensive process to minimize ES/SD. It's doesn't necessarily have to be some excruciating kind of test, but something simple as a one-time test, anything that will increase your confidence level regarding the chronograph readings if they are in doubt.
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eric n
Silver $$ Contributor
Grabbed a handful, didn't check bearing length. Kinda surprised by the result, not far off Bergers.
Eric,Have you had a chance to test the 90SMK im about to test mine real soon to see how they stack up against the bergers im shooting. Im hoping to get some good results so i dont have to waste my bergers for club matches we will see.
eric n
Silver $$ Contributor
Haven't shot enough of them and I'm not confident enough in reading conditions to make any firm conclusions.
10-15 gusting 20 tomorrow... should be a good test.
You got some good ones. The ones I've seen had over .020 variation base to ogive in a 100ct box.
I'm not so concerned about "true" readings as I am getting consistent readings. Last month a friend and I put our chronographs one behind the other and shot about 35 rounds or so. They didn't match exactly, but they were very close to one another. A plot of the various recorded velocities from the two chronographs correlated perfectly. In other words, the difference in the two readings for one round was proportional to the difference in he readings for another round. It matters not which one was "correct", only that the readings made sense, the MVs seemed to match expected values, and none of them indicated any readings which might lead us astray; i.e. no surprise glitches.
Of course the reason we did this was to try to eliminate doubt about recording a round which shows a MV which seems out of the ordinary. It still could be a chronograph error, but now I have more confidence that it is probably caused by some other factor when I see a goofy reading.
By the way, thanks for your informative reply.
Yea, it's disappointing when you load for your 223 and 308 the same way and can have a good load with low es in the 308 in 30 rounds shooting over the same chrony that gives high es with the 223.
eric n
Silver $$ Contributor
Thanks for the tip.
When you say no other changes, do you mean velocity doesn't change and es does?
I tried it closer today but it was too windy to notice group dispersion. My velocity was 25 fps slower though?
Thanks
It's funny because the 308 prep is extremely minimalistic in comparison to what I've tried to get the 223 to shrink in SD/ES. 308 prep was more like, STM clean, air dry couple days, fl size with standard lee, trim/chamfer/deburr, prime, powder with chargemaster, seat with Forster micrometer, done. Seeing good results from that is what made me go a little nuts over this.
I think if I had a tool to measure the pressure curve as the rounds are being fired, it would likely explain what is going on. I have a theory that having the right pressure curve is what can make a caliber inherently more accurate or just another caliber. I figure that the ultimate curve can be somewhat approached with the right powder, primer, seating depth, bearing surface, and chamber. Specifically, I want to answer the question "What makes 6 PPC so accurate?".
The other day I shot a man's rifle at my local range. It was a benchrest rifle in 6 PPC. It was the first time I shot a benchrest rifle like that. The picture below is 3 shots and I measured 0.026" with On Target. I'm just amazed at stuff like this. Then looking at 223, I am suddenly less hopeful about the caliber's future in my reloading room.
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