What to do...nodes are only 1/2 grain wide?

[Vandy321]

To clarify, I guess one could argue there are two nodes, but both are only 1/2 grain wide? And accuracy really sucked on the upper node?

Pic attached...I plotted the center of each 3 shot string on a graph. Group size is located on left, charge weight is next to POI center for each group.

I'm thinking 74 to 74.5 for both POI and group size.

If so, how do tune this load...shoot again from 73.7, 74, 74.3, 74.6 and see what I get?

Havent chrono'd these yet...but most folks are posting nodes in the 2820 FPS or so, which even at a DA of 9k...I doubt I'm getting at 74.5 gr

Any advice from the experts would be appreciated.

 

[338 dude]

I’m no expert but I would try 75.7 to be in the center of that node and play with seating depth pretty standard stuff

 

[olddav]

I have read that a ladder test will sometimes fail to show the potential of a powder. In those cases a OCW test may be more revealing.
If neither test yields acceptable results then you may want to try another powder.
Often I am just parroting what someone else has said or written and this post is no exception.

 

[Nightraider]

Half a grain is pretty big.....

 

[Ol’ Ed]

That is a very interesting ladder results. If it were me, I’d try a different powder just to see how the ladder changed. I’ve had great results in the 300 WM with H4831, H4831SC, H1000, and RE22 with 190+ grain bullets. I wouldn’t change anything else. Please post your results. And IME, 1/2 grain in the 300 WM really didn’t change things much, either in the chrono data or on the target. But it sure did in your rifle. Is your barrel a sporter?

 

[Sniper338]

I do things my way... but 100 yards is very hard to tell a whole lot in a ladder test. I wouldnt change the powder just yet, but Id test more at a longer distance... id change bullets before powder too.

Also you dont mention it.. but I like to get some rounds down a berrel first before even starting to develop a load. Ive always seen lack of consistancy trying to develop a load too quick on a new barrel. Just me though and my way.

 

[Ol’ Ed]

I do things my way... but 100 yards is very hard to tell a whole lot in a ladder test. I wouldnt change the powder just yet, but Id test more at a longer distance... id change bullets before powder too.

Also you dont mention it.. but I like to get some rounds down a berrel first before even starting to develop a load. Ive always seen lack of consistancy trying to develop a load too quick on a new barrel. Just me though and my way.

Sniper338 brings up an excellent point: 100 yards is really too short for a ladder test. 300 yards would be better. I didn’t catch the 100 yards in your earlier post. Sorry, still on first cup of coffee.

 

[Ol’ Ed]

....but let me add that at 100 yards, that really makes the results of your ladder test even stranger! I wouldn’t expect 6” of vertical with just 1/2 grain powder changes at 100 yards in a cartridge as large as a .300 WM. Please keep posting your findings.

 

[JFrank]

To clarify, I guess one could argue there are two nodes, but both are only 1/2 grain wide? And accuracy really sucked on the upper node?

Pic attached...I plotted the center of each 3 shot string on a graph. Group size is located on left, charge weight is next to POI center for each group.

I'm thinking 74 to 74.5 for both POI and group size.

If so, how do tune this load...shoot again from 73.7, 74, 74.3, 74.6 and see what I get?

Havent chrono'd these yet...but most folks are posting nodes in the 2820 FPS or so, which even at a DA of 9k...I doubt I'm getting at 74.5 gr

Any advice from the experts would be appreciated.
View attachment 1134137

Well Bi Pod testing is very difficult IMO, - I’m no expert on 300 WM BUT just looking at your ladder test and thinking if this were me I would look at horizontal impact not group size or shape. With that said I would load 73.2 gr than proceed to a seating test , hopefully farther than 100 yards.

 

[Vandy321]

Well Bi Pod testing is very difficult IMO, - I’m no expert on 300 WM BUT just looking at your ladder test and thinking if this were me I would look at horizontal impact not group size or shape. With that said I would load 73.2 gr than proceed to a seating test , hopefully farther than 100 yards.

Rifle has 250 rounds down it, it's a proof. I am actually taking it in to my smith to have him check his bedding job. There is a 1.5 inch shift down and right from a cold to a warm barrel. So I shot this test warm, but not hot.

This was an OCW...just way too many target pictures to post up. Almost all sub .5 moa groups listed next to charge weights were nice clover leaf type with more horizontal than vert.

I figured I'd plot the POI to eliminate 10 target pics and to also see if any flat spots jumped out on paper in regards to charge weight (like a generic Ladder test). I was expecting to be able to see the similar POI in relation to POA on 2-3 charge weights and that would be my node IAW OCW testing...I graphed the results and it just so happened to show it like a ladder test also, as POI didnt do much except slowly walk up and right.

Yes, will test out further. With 10 pieces left on the same group of prepped brass, I'm left with one Fowler and 3 x 3 shot groups...just trying to narrow down a node to chase before I go to seating and test out to 800-1000.

338...would that 75.5 node be too small to be temp stable and reliable from 80 degrees down to the teens? That's the main reason I was looking for a wider node...

74gr shot really nice and would have great barrel life, wondering if with my remaining prepped brass I should chase thar lower node with say 3 at 73.7, 74.3 and 74.7...and plug those results in to the current graph? If they all shoot .5 or so, even slow speed, id be happy.

 

[Vandy321]

Strange thing about this rifle is...cold bore, 10-15 min between shots will all be touching, a .3 - .4 moa or less rifle with bergers...but it doesnt group for shit if I shoot it warm, have tried clean, fouled, fouled with 100+ rounds, clean again, etc. Its about a .7 moa rifle warm...its starting to irritate me.

 

[Fred B.]

I wouldn’t trust a bipod for ladder test. It can have drastic effects on vertical based on how much you pre-load the bipod.
Also a proof barrel means it’s a hunting rifle and all that matters is 1st shot and potentially 2nd shot.

 

[Vandy321]

I wouldn’t trust a bipod for ladder test. It can have drastic effects on vertical based on how much you pre-load the bipod.
Also a proof barrel means it’s a hunting rifle and all that matters is 1st shot and potentially 2nd shot.

50% true...its also my range rifle...like to shoot steel and the warm barrel scatter gun is unacceptable, the reason I'm trying eldm instead of bergers.

This wasnt a ladder test. This was a 3 shot OCW test, I simply plotted center of each group, to find the charge weights that impact in a similar clock position. It just happened to play out like a ladder test as the POI for each group just walked up and right....completely different than my berger OCW test, reason why I'm so lost on what to do here.

 

[Zero333]

If it was me, I'd probably test 73.5 -/- 73.8 -/- 74.1 -/- 74.4 -/- 74.7

 

[Vandy321]

If it was me, I'd probably test 73.5 -/- 73.8 -/- 74.1 -/- 74.4 -/- 74.7

I got close enough to that based off that lower node. Already have data on 73.5, so I just went 73.7 (have data for 74) 74.3 (have data for 74.5) and 74.8...hoping somewhere in there shows promise. I'd be thrilled with a could of charge weights that shoot .5s without even messing with seating depths.

These are 20 off, seems most eldm like 20 to 30 off as a max?

Will post results, thanks all for the inputs.

Am I out to lunch calling what I did an OCW? Just shooting groups and finding which charge weights have similar POI in a clock position? Not sure why it looks like a ladder on the graph, that wasnt the plan

 

[Zero333]

I was just thinking. If you're not happy with the accuracy, you may try RL-33.

RL-33 is to slow for the 300winmag untill you get into the 220+ grainers.
Alliant has/had RL-33 data for the 300win with 220 SMK. Think it was like 79.6 gr as max.
I went up to 78.5 with 240 smk. and no pressure signs. That's where I stopped. This was in FC brass which has 92 ish h2O capacity when full sized.

 

[olddav]

Trying a different powder would be worth your time and I would be interested to see if you handloads will hold up with a 70* temperature shift. Mine are good for 20* - 25* before falling apart.

Now as far as my ladder test commits earlier. I focused on the visuals and not the text of our post. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[gman47564]

I shoot a 215 gr. berger hybrid in my 300 win mag and get good speed and accuracy with re26.. finding it is the problem...lol

 

[Vandy321]

I shoot a 215 gr. berger hybrid in my 300 win mag and get good speed and accuracy with re26.. finding it is the problem...lol

Planning to stick with H1000...temp stable from summer to the elk woods in Oct. If I cant get these ELD-Ms to shoot, I'll go back to my 215 load. Its .7 or so at 800 yards, and the node is a full grain wide...just wanted to try a more cost effective and supposedly more accurate bullet.

 

[L.Sherm]

supposedly more accurate bullet.

I think this answers your question.