What to do...nodes are only 1/2 grain wide?

[Loggins J]

The bigger the case and the slower the powder will give you a bigger tune window as been my experience

 

[Vandy321]

I think this answers your question.

Meaning they're not more accurate...or they are? Subjective question, I know every rifle is different...but I dont get that post

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Rifle has 250 rounds down it, it's a proof. I am actually taking it in to my smith to have him check his bedding job. There is a 1.5 inch shift down and right from a cold to a warm barrel. So I shot this test warm, but not hot.

This was an OCW...just way too many target pictures to post up. Almost all sub .5 moa groups listed next to charge weights were nice clover leaf type with more horizontal than vert.

I figured I'd plot the POI to eliminate 10 target pics and to also see if any flat spots jumped out on paper in regards to charge weight (like a generic Ladder test). I was expecting to be able to see the similar POI in relation to POA on 2-3 charge weights and that would be my node IAW OCW testing...I graphed the results and it just so happened to show it like a ladder test also, as POI didnt do much except slowly walk up and right.

Yes, will test out further. With 10 pieces left on the same group of prepped brass, I'm left with one Fowler and 3 x 3 shot groups...just trying to narrow down a node to chase before I go to seating and test out to 800-1000.

338...would that 75.5 node be too small to be temp stable and reliable from 80 degrees down to the teens? That's the main reason I was looking for a wider node...

74gr shot really nice and would have great barrel life, wondering if with my remaining prepped brass I should chase thar lower node with say 3 at 73.7, 74.3 and 74.7...and plug those results in to the current graph? If they all shoot .5 or so, even slow speed, id be happy.

You're wasting your time tuning for accuracy at 100 yards, especially if using VLD bullets. Take it to at least 500 yards and then worry about tuning and finding your node. 100 yard groups wont tell you anything. I've had screamer groups at 100 turn to trash at 500 yards and beyond, then decent 1/2" groups at 100 end up holding 1/4 MOA at long range.

I also see you are changing charge weights, but not seating depth. Gotta try different seating depths in .005" increments within the charge weight nodes. The different depths will either make the nodes wider or worse. Just have to see.

Dont get your mind stuck on one powder either. Just because H1000 is temp stable and other people have luck with it doesnt mean it will be the best fit for your rifle. There are plenty of other powders out there that are just as temp stable as H1000.

BUT again, dont shoot anymore rounds at 100 yards. You're just throwing money away if you plan on shooting long range with the rifle. Theres a chance you might find a great node at 100 yards then be pulling your hair out when you suddenly find that it wont shoot worth a damn at long range.

Worse comes to worse, try a primer change.

If you shoot in the field from a bipod, then dont change anything with your rest. Keep testing your loads from a bipod like you are already doing. If you start shooting from a seated position at a bench with a front rest, your bipod/prone form might get a little sloppy and inconsistent. Then that will really mess things up when you need to make a shot that counts in the field. Keep practicing and testing the way the rifle will be used.

 

[L.Sherm]

Meaning they're not more accurate...or they are? Subjective question, I know every rifle is different...but I dont get that post

I've only ever got 1 rifle to shoot hornady well and that was at 100. Day in and day out In my opinion Bergers will shoot better right out of the box. Have you ever measured the Hornandys BTO every time I have the Bergers were way more consistent. The supposedly more accurate is what I was referring to since you said you were struggling with the ELD M. I know every rifle is different it's just my experience.

 

[lal357]

i agree the eldm's have inconsistant BTO i measure each one when i reload them but they will shoot . it could be his rifle just doesnt like them i picked up shilen select match from a guy on here years ago cheap he said it would not shoot the 190gr bullets he liked and he was correct it hated them. but it loves 155-178 and 208's just fine.

 

[Vandy321]

I'm not sure where this fell off the rails...this was just one step in the load dev process. An OCW test, to identify some charge weights to start to work with, now the width of the node, load the middle, work with seating depths at longer range, and lastly maybe primer change just to confirm.

The initial question was simply just is the .5gr node/flat spot/similar POI, whatever you want to call it, too small to have a reliable load. Load dev far from over. If it ends up that those .5 moa charge weights hold up at range, I'm thrilled.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I'm not sure where this fell off the rails...this was just one step in the load dev process. An OCW test, to identify some charge weights to start to work with, now the width of the node, load the middle, work with seating depths at longer range, and lastly maybe primer change just to confirm.

The initial question was simply just is the .5gr node/flat spot/similar POI, whatever you want to call it, too small to have a reliable load. Load dev far from over. If it ends up that those .5 moa charge weights hold up at range, I'm thrilled.

The question I would be asking is how wide a velocity and/or temperature spread would you expect that 0.5 gr node to cover? I agree with you that 0.5 gr might be a little on the short side for a case capacity that large.

Nonetheless, if it's all that you have, sometimes you just have to load to the center and go with it. You can then develop some feel for how much play you have on either side of the center of the node using velocity and/or temperature as surrogates for charge weight. For example, if loaded to the center of a 0.5 gr node (i.e. 0.25 gr charge weight to either side), how much would an additional 0.25 gr of powder increase the velocity? When loaded to the center, how much would the temperature have to change to put the load out of the node? Neither of those factors widen/change the node in any way, but they can be useful for estimating how forgiving the window actually is.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I'm not sure where this fell off the rails...this was just one step in the load dev process. An OCW test, to identify some charge weights to start to work with, now the width of the node, load the middle, work with seating depths at longer range, and lastly maybe primer change just to confirm.

The initial question was simply just is the .5gr node/flat spot/similar POI, whatever you want to call it, too small to have a reliable load. Load dev far from over. If it ends up that those .5 moa charge weights hold up at range, I'm thrilled.

The whole point of my post is to stop wasting ammo trying to find ANY node at 100 yards.
Doesnt really matter what anyone tells you because 100 yard groups and POI's dont tell the true story of how the rifle is reacting to the recipe's


Was your point of aim on the target with all groups always dead center? Or was it on the different 1" incremental hash marks with each group?
If your POA was always dead center, then there's one thing you can be dead sure of with the exceesive variation of POI results at 100 yards, and that's to scrap everything and try a different bullet and/or powder.

Plotting groups with one dot for an average POI doesnt help us much either. Where are the actual targets? Group formation has a lot to do with which loads you want to work with. If you're getting a 1" group where two bullets are touching and one flier, that's not the best starting point. If they are in a fairly horizontal line or tight equilateral triangle, you might be able to tune it in easier.

 

[Vandy321]

I have no qualms starting a load at 100 yards. There are 106 pages on here of an Erik Cortina thread that seem to back up the 100 yard OCW type test....same with newberry.

Nothing is wasted, it's all trigger time, I dont shoot for competitions just for fun so even time spent at 100 yards working on fundementals and messing with a load is good for me. End result will be verified at range. I dont always have access to the outdoor steel range, so I do what I can with what I have.

Rifle is going back to the smith before any more load dev is done...between this and my other load workup, and the 1.5-2" POI shift as barrel warms, I'm not super confident in their bedding job. Disappointing as it's a pretty well known smith.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I have no qualms starting a load at 100 yards. There are 106 pages on here of an Erik Cortina thread that seem to back up the 100 yard OCW type test....same with newberry.

Nothing is wasted, it's all trigger time, I dont shoot for competitions just for fun so even time spent at 100 yards working on fundementals and messing with a load is good for me.

Rifle is going back to the smith before any more load dev is done...between this and my other load workup, and the 1.5-2" POI shift as barrel warms, I'm not super confident in their bedding job. Disappointing as it's a pretty well known smith.

So you tried one bullet, with one powder, one primer, at one seating depth, at only 100 yards, couldnt get it to shoot like you want and now that's it... sending it back to the gunsmith No wonder some of those guys get so grumpy with customers. Lol!

 

[Vandy321]

So you tried one bullet, with one powder, one primer, at one seating depth, at only 100 yards, couldnt get it to shoot like you want and now that's it... sending it back to the gunsmith No wonder some of those guys get so grumpy with customers. Lol!

You're a clown dude...i have a berger load that holds sub moa (.7 ) out to 800 with under 2" vert, an ES of 9 and an SD of 3.5, and a big thanks to folks on this forum who helped me get it there..its a hunting rifle, I'm very happy with that in a 7lb 30 cal magnum. And I worked my a$$ off to get it there. Working on an eldm for fun, it's a cheaper bullet, higher BC, and why not see what else works if I have the time, since I already have a good load for hunting.

The decision to send it to the smith has been made over multiple observations from both myself and others shooting the rifle, sending some targets to the smith showing the growing cold bore shift, etc etc. Significant different in the rifle from shooting only cold bore, to watching the barrel warm and the POI walk significantly. Cold bore it shoots same hole. Warming up it walks significantly...so much that if I shoot my cold bore zero'd at 800 on a warm barrel, Its not even on steel.

Worked over 150 rounds working up the berger load, ladder, OCW, seating depth, primer swaps, etc... it's a fun hobby, not something I'd just shoot once and say "f*ck it, gun's broke"

I stopped listening to your input after your first post. Carry on.

 

[swd]

Give RL23 a try. Very similar to 4831 but many people using it, including myself, have found it has incredibly wide tune windows. And it and it’s faster burning little brother RL16 are the most temp stable powders available.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

You're a clown dude...i have a berger load that holds sub moa (.7 ) out to 800 with under 2" vert, an ES of 9 and an SD of 3.5, and a big thanks to folks on this forum who helped me get it there..its a hunting rifle, I'm very happy with that in a 7lb 30 cal magnum. And I worked my a$$ off to get it there. Working on an eldm for fun, it's a cheaper bullet, higher BC, and why not see what else works if I have the time, since I already have a good load for hunting.

The decision to send it to the smith has been made over multiple observations from both myself and others shooting the rifle, sending some targets to the smith showing the growing cold bore shift, etc etc. Significant different in the rifle from shooting only cold bore, to watching the barrel warm and the POI walk significantly. Cold bore it shoots same hole. Warming up it walks significantly...so much that if I shoot my cold bore zero'd at 800 on a warm barrel, Its not even on steel.

Worked over 150 rounds working up the berger load, ladder, OCW, seating depth, primer swaps, etc... it's a fun hobby, not something I'd just shoot once and say "f*ck it, gun's broke"

I stopped listening to your input after your first post. Carry on.

Fair enough. But I think most would agree that your testing methods aren't the best approach. Throwing 150 rounds down range to find a load that only produces .7 MOA accuracy should give you a clue that the methods used, or perhaps methods you were advised to use, aren't very effective or efficient.
But to each his own. Accuracy is in the eye of the beholder. I hope you get it shooting the way you want. Best of luck.

 

[Vandy321]

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/long-range-load-development-at-100-yards.3814361/

But I'm sure your way is the only way.

.7 at 800 yards in a 10-12 crosswind and 2" of vert...that's about as good as I can shoot. Maybe one day i'll be as impressive behind the rifle as you imply you are. The goal of the load was a low spread in a wide node to account for temp variations...I'll take a 9 ES in a hunting rifle. I'm not a bench rest shooter, a pro, nor will I ever be...this was a bipod and a bag in a grass field, on a gusty day, happy with it.

 

[Vandy321]

 

[Sniper338]

....but let me add that at 100 yards, that really makes the results of your ladder test even stranger! I wouldn’t expect 6” of vertical with just 1/2 grain powder changes at 100 yards in a cartridge as large as a .300 WM. Please keep posting your findings.

I was getting at that... at 100 yards they should all be an ugly group and hard to tell anything. Theres way too much vertical for 100 yards.

 

[Vandy321]

I was getting at that... at 100 yards they should all be an ugly group and hard to tell anything. Theres way too much vertical for 100 yards.

What do you think could be causing that...I had very similar results with a ladder test with bergers as well. The 2nd berger test, OCW looked more "normal" but still while groups were each sub moa or so regardless of charge weight, the POI from group to group shifted greatly. I did finally find a nice node with a consistent POI, but those large POI shifts were still there.

I'd like to blame the shooter, but I'm not THAT terrible. I shoot my surgeon .308 in the .3s from a backpack and rear bag.

Have checked action screws, rings, checked bbl channel for obstructions or rubbing, etc. I'm out of ideas. That same vertical stringing goes about 2-3 inches the other direction if I shoot about 10-12 rounds from a cold to a hot barrel.

 

[L.Sherm]

If the bedding checks out, I would be looking g at the scope next either with a scope checker or a proven scope.

 

[Vandy321]

If the bedding checks out, I would be looking g at the scope next either with a scope checker or a proven scope.

It's an S&B PMII...ran a tall target test with it when I got it and rings are torque'd to specs.

I have no reason to doubt my smith, but folks have suggested bedding or barrel. Havent found anything about lemon Proof barrels...not sure how I would confirm that anyways. Will see what the smith says I guess. It's a manners stock, pillar bedded. Barreled action does seem to sit a tiny bit crooked in the channel, just a tiny bit, but doesnt seem to be touching.

 

[L.Sherm]

Still doesnt mean poi could start moving after you used it. Might be worth another test and save some frustrations.