What Stops a Large Bear close-up?
- Thread starter Laurie
- Start date
The fact is that nothing but a central nervous system hit will guarantee an instant stop. If the CNS is hit, it matters little what hit it. Having said that, the most popular arms here in Wyoming are 45-70 carbines, 12 bore pump or semi auto shotguns with slugs and big-bore revolvers. You pay your money, and take your chances.
My understanding from talking to cops and coroners is that the only thing that "stops" anything is either:
a) a wound that causes tissue damage and bleeding sufficient to immediately drop the blood pressure to the brain, causing a loss of consciousness; or
b) a wound that damages the CNS (brain, spine, etc.), again causing an immediate loss of consciousness.
a) a wound that causes tissue damage and bleeding sufficient to immediately drop the blood pressure to the brain, causing a loss of consciousness; or
b) a wound that damages the CNS (brain, spine, etc.), again causing an immediate loss of consciousness.
You really do not need a gun. Just a buddy or an ex that you can out run. LOL.
Regards, Paul
www.boltfluting.com
Regards, Paul
www.boltfluting.com
When I was shopping for a bear repellent (permanent) for bowhunting out west I picked up a 475 Linebaugh FA w/ 5.5" bbl. Carries decent, and with a 420 gr hardcast bullet it will punch a bears tounge through his backside, or at least that's how I picture it ;D. Of course in Canada, G.B, etc, those handcannons are not allowed, so I'd go with a 12ga and BRI Sabots.
From the article:
He studied at the university where I work, so a few of my colleagues knew him personally
So he still had his wits about him...
He studied at the university where I work, so a few of my colleagues knew him personally
effendude
Gold $$ Contributor
I am friends with a Alaskan guide and his father, both have guided for big bears for a living. The father carried a Model 70 .375 H&H everywhere. The son carries a .338 Win Mag with Barnes bullets and also a .44Mag revolver with hardcast bullets. The son explains that the .338 is a killing machine, capable of end to end bullet travel on the big bears for multiple shots, close and from a distance. He stresses the need to quickly be able to recover from recoil and shoot follow-up shots. The son also does horseback hunts in the interior and carries the pistol on his belt as bears have been known to attack/spook horses. He explains your rifle doesn't do you any good sitting in the scabbard of a horse running away from the bear, especially while you are sitting on the ground with the bear. I trust his judgement. He has used the pistol on several occasions to dispatch bull moose that turn out to be "not quite dead" when he and the hunter get to the animal. He says the hardcast bullets do the job.
I guess the bottom line is whatever you want to use, it has to be on your person, not leaning against a bush nearby or in a scabbard. Bears can cover an amazing amount of ground in the blink of an eye.
Scott
I guess the bottom line is whatever you want to use, it has to be on your person, not leaning against a bush nearby or in a scabbard. Bears can cover an amazing amount of ground in the blink of an eye.
Scott
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
DaveC said:
N Carolina was over 900#
Ray
fishing on Kodak with my old school mate who lived in Alaska, he advised carry big (44m or more heavy cast bullets 250 or more) pistol in shoulder holster which I did- he had a 12ga short pump 3"mag with slugs in a over the shoulder carry.
we were in waders fly fishing. bear all over the place.
Bob
we were in waders fly fishing. bear all over the place.
Bob
XTR
F-TR obssessed shooting junkie
Laurie, the folks I've known that went into the bush in AK carried something large bore, short and fast swing. Large bore revolvers on par with the 44 Mag/454 Casul, or short 12 ga shotguns loaded with slugs, or 45-70/450 Marlin lever guns with 18" barrels.
You don't need velocity, you need mass, penetration, and something that will be in your hands when you need it. What you are talking about is a defensive weapon, not something that you would carry for hunting. It changes the paradigm from the usual hunting rifle. There are many that will do the job if you are hunting and can "take a shot" but watch a couple of charging lion videos and then add in the element of surprise, not a hunting scenario and you get the idea.
edit: in any case one would need to pick something that will be with them everywhere they go when they get out of the truck, because when you need it you can't go back and get it. That probably means a revolver for most people. I'd go with a Ruger 44Mag redhawk. Yea, you have to get it out of the holster, but if your rife is in the truck you're f'd. If I was picking a long gun to carry all the time I'd go with a 45-70 in a short Marlin. That said, the rifle in question should have been able to do the job had the shooter understood it's operation.
You don't need velocity, you need mass, penetration, and something that will be in your hands when you need it. What you are talking about is a defensive weapon, not something that you would carry for hunting. It changes the paradigm from the usual hunting rifle. There are many that will do the job if you are hunting and can "take a shot" but watch a couple of charging lion videos and then add in the element of surprise, not a hunting scenario and you get the idea.
edit: in any case one would need to pick something that will be with them everywhere they go when they get out of the truck, because when you need it you can't go back and get it. That probably means a revolver for most people. I'd go with a Ruger 44Mag redhawk. Yea, you have to get it out of the holster, but if your rife is in the truck you're f'd. If I was picking a long gun to carry all the time I'd go with a 45-70 in a short Marlin. That said, the rifle in question should have been able to do the job had the shooter understood it's operation.
XTR said:
We have passed around a lot of interesting and good information in this thread, but I think in the end, in the specific case that began this discussion, that is the most telling and important comment. In the final analysis, the operator, not the caliber, flubbed bigtime, with fatal results.
When hunting, I almost always have a 12Ga with me for grouse and other small game. It was stoked with 1oz slugs when we went to recover the moose in very heavy bear country.
I do not hunt bear.... this was in case bear wanted our moose more then us. Is it adequate? Never hope to find out but 3 slugs at point blank distance ought to slow things down a bit. For better or worst, I chose a semi vs a pump.
If I needed a camp defense firearm, my choice would be a marlin in a 45-70 or even a hot rodded 45LC and very heavy cast bullets. I had a Win trapper in 45LC and loaded it to 454 casull type levels. With hard cast, I have never seen ANY combo that displaced more water jugs, phone books, and logs at close range.
Recoil was easily controllable, accuracy was excellent, rate of fire was impressive.... think it held like 10 rds.
If a dangerous game charges, I want a whole lot of lead going that-a-way cause they have an enormous tenacity for life and damage.
I still lean towards a big bore semi. In Canada, none exist as we don't get to play with AR's in the field (range use only). If they were reliable, an AR in a 45 or 50cal something or other, muzzle braked would be very interesting to me. Red dot, keep pulling that trigger, 350gr to 400gr hard cast going into a pie plate size group even under stress.
I believe 10rds would fit in a 20rd mag?
Sometimes stopping involves breaking...
Jerry
I do not hunt bear.... this was in case bear wanted our moose more then us. Is it adequate? Never hope to find out but 3 slugs at point blank distance ought to slow things down a bit. For better or worst, I chose a semi vs a pump.
If I needed a camp defense firearm, my choice would be a marlin in a 45-70 or even a hot rodded 45LC and very heavy cast bullets. I had a Win trapper in 45LC and loaded it to 454 casull type levels. With hard cast, I have never seen ANY combo that displaced more water jugs, phone books, and logs at close range.
Recoil was easily controllable, accuracy was excellent, rate of fire was impressive.... think it held like 10 rds.
If a dangerous game charges, I want a whole lot of lead going that-a-way cause they have an enormous tenacity for life and damage.
I still lean towards a big bore semi. In Canada, none exist as we don't get to play with AR's in the field (range use only). If they were reliable, an AR in a 45 or 50cal something or other, muzzle braked would be very interesting to me. Red dot, keep pulling that trigger, 350gr to 400gr hard cast going into a pie plate size group even under stress.
I believe 10rds would fit in a 20rd mag?
Sometimes stopping involves breaking...
Jerry
hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
338 Mollett said:
Most countries in Africa require a minimum of .375 for dangerous game. A charging elephant at 15 yards is not a place to be without some seriously LARGE firepower. Double rifles are popular with the professional hunters for that quick follow up shot. It's curious they never caught on on this continent.
bobm
Silver $$ Contributor
DaveC said:
Built Ford tough, baby. 8)
In the summer of 97 my wife and I spent 130 days touring Alaska. We logged about 125 miles hiking on foot into remote fishing spots around the state. Traveling through Canada with our truck camper made taking a handgun illegal. I opted to take my Winchester 1300 pump 18" Defender 8 shot 3"12ga. It was loaded with an even mix of 00 buck and Brenneke slugs. Toting that 10 pound bruiser over my shoulder butt up due to all the rain was a chore while hiking. We never did come across a bear while hiking. Had several blacks come into our remote campsites, though. No bad encounters.
The 450 Alaskan (45x.348) in a Winchester M71 has a good track record. I think the marlin lever in 45-70 and other big cals have a place in Alaska for "just in case" guns. first the gun has to function VERY well and 100%, second the shooter must use the gun often and understand how to use it. In the case of the night attack they should have had alarms/electric fence because the bear will not tell you " here I come". I'm not a fan of semi-auto's as I have personally had and saw semi-auto shot gun fail to reload during goose hunting when the temps are 10 degrees. I don't think pistol's are the answer but make the guy carrying it feel better. I had a large black bear stalk me in New Mexico when hunting elk, I was carrying a .50 cal muzzle loader, at 30 yds I did not want my knife in my teeth and the one shot in the gun to be tested. I had watched the bear 3 min earlier pass below me on the hill and when he got my scent he came up and around to find me and popped out of the brush way too close. Raised up and got as big as I could and moved a step in his direction and stopped, he just slowly backed off. I was happy things worked out that way. we had a local hunter in Montana lose an eye and half of his face to a grizzly while he was watching his guide and another hunter dress a deer down the hill from him, it grabbed him from behind. Bears are quite when they want to be, it's how they get their prey. I met a guide in Wyoming that had his B&C moose taken away from him by a grizz he did get the horns and about 25% of the meat. He had shot gun ammo issued to him by fish and game that was loaded with an explosive charge like an M80 to use to get bears afraid of humans for use in his hunting camps. He did not get to test them on the bear that got his moose as he was hunting.
I think it depends on what your needs are. For example, if the question is only “what can stop a bear?†then the answer will be “The largest, fastest, heaviest projectile you can sling in its direction.†If the only requirement was “I need something that will stop a bear quickly,†then I would suggest something like a 12g slug, or a .45-70, or maybe a .375 H&H.
However, the question is usually posed as “I need something for bear defense while fishing.†Or “I need something for bear defense while hiking in the woods.†Then the conversation shifts. Then it starts to become a practicality conversation. See, I know for a fact I would be better off packing around a .47-70 lever rifle in bear country… But it just flat isn’t practical. Over the 4th, I did a long back-packing trip into the wilderness here in Montana. Over 3 nights we did roughly 38 miles carrying 70+ pound packs. Throwing a lever rifle on top of that (and making it accessible) isn’t practical. I’m also dealing with more than just bears: Wolves, Mountain Lions, Badgers… The list goes on.
This is the point that opinions start to enter the debate. Anyone familiar with firearms understands that a large, fast projectile is going to have the most energy. But for times when simply having the largest and the fastest isn’t practical you have to start compromising. The question then becomes.. How much do I want to compromise, and where do I want to do the compromising?
For example: you might decide you want to compromise on size only. So, instead of carrying a rifle, you might take a pistol. If that is the only compromise you would take the pistol that shoots the largest, heaviest, fastest bullet available in pistol format… You would likely look at a .500SW, for example. The point being: the second you decide to compromise away from the heaviest and fastest, you are giving up some “bear stopping†ability, but you are meeting additional needs beyond “bear stopping.â€
Personally, and this is where it becomes nearly all opinion and less science. I need something that has enough energy to stop a bear (in my opinion), enough capacity to be used for other threats (in my opinion), and light enough to be carried comfortably (in my opinion), and small enough to be easily deployed in an emergency.
For all of those reasons, I made the decision to carry two things in bear country: good bear spray, and a pistol small enough to be carried on the side of my pack but still have enough power to put down a bear. That’s why I went with a 10mm 15 round 220g hardcast capacity pistol. I give up bullet size for capacity. I give up barrel length (extra FPS) for a more compact and manageable size that weighs less. It is nothing but a series of compromises away from what is “the bestâ€: the largest, heaviest, fastest projectile. What people should ask themselves is very simple: at what point away from “the largest, heaviest, and fastest†am I comfortable using? What is the point that I no longer feel comfortable? If your answer is “at no point,†then you carry the largest, heaviest, and fastest. Everyone else will fall on some kind of spectrum, from X caliber up to the largest, heaviest, and fastest and everywhere in-between. But that really changes the question from “what’s the best†to “what are the compromises you are willing to make?â€
What lead me to my decision was a whole lotta research and some real world experiences. I’ve personally watched a black bear take 7 hot rounds from a .357mag and keep fighting dogs like it just got stung by a bee. I’ve personally watched a black bear take a .44mag to the head and drop like someone turned off the lights. I have yet to use my 10mm as bear defense (Thank God), so I can’t provide you personal real world experience. I do know it’s good enough for the Siriuspatruljen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sl%C3%A6depatruljen_Sirius) whom encounter Polar Bears regularly, and it’s good enough for many guides in Alaska (http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/109570-Alaska-Guides-carrying-10mm-for-Bear-Defence-Sidearm) , part of the reason it meets MY requirements and MY compromises.
Of course… That’s just MY opinion.
However, the question is usually posed as “I need something for bear defense while fishing.†Or “I need something for bear defense while hiking in the woods.†Then the conversation shifts. Then it starts to become a practicality conversation. See, I know for a fact I would be better off packing around a .47-70 lever rifle in bear country… But it just flat isn’t practical. Over the 4th, I did a long back-packing trip into the wilderness here in Montana. Over 3 nights we did roughly 38 miles carrying 70+ pound packs. Throwing a lever rifle on top of that (and making it accessible) isn’t practical. I’m also dealing with more than just bears: Wolves, Mountain Lions, Badgers… The list goes on.
This is the point that opinions start to enter the debate. Anyone familiar with firearms understands that a large, fast projectile is going to have the most energy. But for times when simply having the largest and the fastest isn’t practical you have to start compromising. The question then becomes.. How much do I want to compromise, and where do I want to do the compromising?
For example: you might decide you want to compromise on size only. So, instead of carrying a rifle, you might take a pistol. If that is the only compromise you would take the pistol that shoots the largest, heaviest, fastest bullet available in pistol format… You would likely look at a .500SW, for example. The point being: the second you decide to compromise away from the heaviest and fastest, you are giving up some “bear stopping†ability, but you are meeting additional needs beyond “bear stopping.â€
Personally, and this is where it becomes nearly all opinion and less science. I need something that has enough energy to stop a bear (in my opinion), enough capacity to be used for other threats (in my opinion), and light enough to be carried comfortably (in my opinion), and small enough to be easily deployed in an emergency.
For all of those reasons, I made the decision to carry two things in bear country: good bear spray, and a pistol small enough to be carried on the side of my pack but still have enough power to put down a bear. That’s why I went with a 10mm 15 round 220g hardcast capacity pistol. I give up bullet size for capacity. I give up barrel length (extra FPS) for a more compact and manageable size that weighs less. It is nothing but a series of compromises away from what is “the bestâ€: the largest, heaviest, fastest projectile. What people should ask themselves is very simple: at what point away from “the largest, heaviest, and fastest†am I comfortable using? What is the point that I no longer feel comfortable? If your answer is “at no point,†then you carry the largest, heaviest, and fastest. Everyone else will fall on some kind of spectrum, from X caliber up to the largest, heaviest, and fastest and everywhere in-between. But that really changes the question from “what’s the best†to “what are the compromises you are willing to make?â€
What lead me to my decision was a whole lotta research and some real world experiences. I’ve personally watched a black bear take 7 hot rounds from a .357mag and keep fighting dogs like it just got stung by a bee. I’ve personally watched a black bear take a .44mag to the head and drop like someone turned off the lights. I have yet to use my 10mm as bear defense (Thank God), so I can’t provide you personal real world experience. I do know it’s good enough for the Siriuspatruljen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sl%C3%A6depatruljen_Sirius) whom encounter Polar Bears regularly, and it’s good enough for many guides in Alaska (http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/109570-Alaska-Guides-carrying-10mm-for-Bear-Defence-Sidearm) , part of the reason it meets MY requirements and MY compromises.
Of course… That’s just MY opinion.
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