What Next for Remington & Rem 700?

[jackieschmidt]

The questionable reliability of push feeds hasn't been driven by magazine articles. It is the result of PHs experiences in Africa hunting dangerous game. A CRF virtually eliminates short stroke and double feed jams that have been a known issue of push feeds since they were first developed in the late 1800s. Feeding jams aren't usually an issue in single shot BR rifle.

The three rings of steel isn't any real advantage. What make an action strong is how well it allows the case head to be surrounded by the barrel. What makes an action safe is how well it controls gas. Rem 700s do both adequately, as do M-70s, Mausers, CZs, Kimbers, Savages, Sakos, Weatherbys, and a plethora of other bolt actions.

The “three rings of steel“ is not designed to stop gasses. It is designed to stop shrapnel.

if you want to go hunt dangerous game, then by all means secure a rifle with the most reliable feed and extraction capabilities available. A well designed control feed system such as the original military Mausers and their decedents certainly comes close. A nice Double is fool proof.

If you want a rifle that operates most efficiently in competitive arenas such as short and long range Benchrest, deer hunting, live varmint shooting, and just about every other shooting endeavor not involving animals that can kill and eat you, the push feed system has proven it’s worth.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

The “three rings of steel“ is not designed to stop gasses. It is designed to stop shrapnel.

Well I can admit and attest to the fact that the design does in fact do that quite well

 

[JimT]

Yeah there are so many cases of them buying companies and just shutting them down. Total disregard for the livelihood of employees and their families.

I think this is the third or fourth time I’ve posted this article.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2016/11/a-billionaires-dreams-of-creating-a-guns-empire.html

I would assume all of the companies Cerberus bought were put up for sale by their owners. If the owners were concerned about Remington/Cerberus moving production they could have stipulated that production had to remain where it was.

 

[LarryDScott]

My only experience w/a semi custom non trued 700 was in a 6BR. Many yrs ago I called Bob White at Shooters corner and had him put a Shilen SS varmint barrel on a new action. I specified an untrue action to cut costs. It was going to be a PD rifle. Before the rifle arrived, I put together a guestimate of a load of Benchmark and 70Gr TNTs.
The first 3 shots at 50Yds was so good you would have called it one shot. I clicked it up to a 100 fired a couple of shots that touched, called it good. Blind luck on the load, I know. I don't see how working the action would have made it any better.
If you are going to compete using a 40X or 700, I think it makes you feel more confident if all things have been done thats possible. Does it help?? Your mileage may vary. LDS

 

[INTJ]

The “three rings of steel“ is not designed to stop gasses. It is designed to stop shrapnel.

if you want to go hunt dangerous game, then by all means secure a rifle with the most reliable feed and extraction capabilities available. A well designed control feed system such as the original military Mausers and their decedents certainly comes close. A nice Double is fool proof.

If you want a rifle that operates most efficiently in competitive arenas such as short and long range Benchrest, deer hunting, live varmint shooting, and just about every other shooting endeavor not involving animals that can kill and eat you, the push feed system has proven it’s worth.

CRF works for deer as well....exceptionally well in all environmental conditions. I wouldn't use CRF for varmints or BR, but I wouldn't use a Remmy either. I have built long range hunting rifles on CRF M-70s and they were sub 1/2 MOA guns, but an M-70 (or 700 for that matter), isn't the best choice for Lapua sized bolt faces. To be honest, it's a waste of the CRF to use it as a single shot long range hunting rifle.

I guess I just disagree on the three rings of steel. The bolt nose recess doesn't really add any more protection. Now a larger barrel tenon and a beefier action will, like we get with a custom action. The BAT B is beefier and the BAT M significantly beefier. However, all modern bolt actions are plenty safe and it's only in extreme situations that any of them fail.

Regardless, I do hope Remington makes it back and they find their way with the 700. To do that I think they should offer ready to go PRS rifles and even a dual port LR BR rifle like Savage tried. There is no reason could offer such a rifle in 6 BR for $1500 that would allow someone to stick their toe in LR BR affordably.

I'd also love to see the 720 come back.

 

[farmerjohn]

Gentleman, I certainly am enjoying the discussion. Opposite opinions being presented without malice is a good opportunity to learn more. I do believe that to make good guns you have to love good guns and not view the company as a profit generator. Bean counters are necessary for the company to work, but they need to be a part "of" and not the sole reason behind the company, John

 

[jcm800]

Cerberus / Freedom Groups plan from day one was to run Remington into the ground. Borrow, maximize profits, bankruptcy.They specialize in distressed investing. It's what they do and they are good at it.....[shocked face]

 

[JimT]

Cerberus / Freedom Groups plan from day one was to run Remington into the ground. Borrow, maximize profits, bankruptcy.They specialize in distressed investing. It's what they do and they are good at it.....[shocked face]

How do bank loan covenants fit into that equation?

 

[Dug]

Cerberus / Freedom Groups plan from day one was to run Remington into the ground. Borrow, maximize profits, bankruptcy.They specialize in distressed investing. It's what they do and they are good at it.....[shocked face]

Yes, & the sooner folks get into their head that Remington is just the brand of some guns & Cerberus Capital who no longer owns the brand were the ones screwing over, buying out, borrowing, burdening the brand, & filing bankruptcies.
Creberus Capital was the guilty party. The Remington brand will be back, maybe with a black eye due to the past owners. But still a solid foundation to shoot things with. Both rifle & shotgun.

Oh, that union complaint? Thinking they had a contract with the past owners, NOT Roundhill. Their gripes, IMO, unfounded & strong armed whining.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Yes, & the sooner folks get into their head that Remington is just the brand of some guns & Cerberus Capital who no longer owns the brand were the ones screwing over, buying out, borrowing, burdening the brand, & filing bankruptcies.
Creberus Capital was the guilty party. The Remington brand will be back, maybe with a black eye due to the past owners. But still a solid foundation to shoot things with. Both rifle & shotgun.

Oh, that union complaint? Thinking they had a contract with the past owners, NOT Roundhill. Their gripes, IMO, unfounded & strong armed whining.

Maybe the workers when called back will love their job more than the union this time and not force the company to move for good

 

[Gman]

Vista owns Remington Ammo division. Roundhill is using RemArms name.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

we dont know if there will be no more or not. The new company says they will make remington guns again. Nobody seems to know when that will be though. Through all these 7 pages of opinions thats all i wanna know about this fiasco--
>>When will i see a "new" remington . << I think Vista owns the remington name, so mabie the new remingtons will have a new name.

The big holdback was Roundhill waiting on their manufacturing FFL. They have that now and are working on getting experienced employees back in the door. Seems like they are pretty close to turning the machines on again

 

[jelenko]

I'm reading the same. But, there is the on going tug of war with the union - that might have an impact.

 

[carlsbad]

Rem 700 clones will always have a good market share. Lots of aftermarket options.

 

[Kittitas George]

The Remington quality must have really gone to hell. Bought my 1st 700 a 22-250 when it was first available, shot it for a lot of years. Very accurate for my needs, mostly rock chucks. Bought a 700 heavy barrel 223 in 2002, it would shoot a tight clover leaf with factory American Eagle Ammo. I only re-loaded a few rounds, my goal was to shoot not reload. I helped out in a friends sporting goods store in the late 60s early 70s, I don't remember any 700s that wouldn't shoot. I'm talking rock chuck shooters. Bench rest shooting was jut getting started. A few a few of our customers were the original members of the Puget Sound Bench Rest Club, which I believe was the 1st one. The only problem I remember with the 700 was a trigger that wasn't safe, we had one fire unexpectedly, fortunately pointed in a safe direction. I've shot a lot of rock chucks and gophers with a 700. Time to head up to those areas I used to shoot about 60 years ago. I'll probably be shooting them off some ones porch. (Should probably hold a little low, get the bullet to open up on the concrete)

 

[JimT]

The Remington quality must have really gone to hell. Bought my 1st 700 a 22-250 when it was first available, shot it for a lot of years. Very accurate for my needs, mostly rock chucks. Bought a 700 heavy barrel 223 in 2002, it would shoot a tight clover leaf with factory American Eagle Ammo. I only re-loaded a few rounds, my goal was to shoot not reload. I helped out in a friends sporting goods store in the late 60s early 70s, I don't remember any 700s that wouldn't shoot. I'm talking rock chuck shooters. Bench rest shooting was jut getting started. A few a few of our customers were the original members of the Puget Sound Bench Rest Club, which I believe was the 1st one. The only problem I remember with the 700 was a trigger that wasn't safe, we had one fire unexpectedly, fortunately pointed in a safe direction. I've shot a lot of rock chucks and gophers with a 700. Time to head up to those areas I used to shoot about 60 years ago. I'll probably be shooting them off some ones porch. (Should probably hold a little low, get the bullet to open up on the concrete)

They seem to have only gotten better since the “human element” has been substantially reduced from the process. Apparently Weed smoking union members are not conducive to tight tolerances!

 

[D-4297]

Is that in comparison to the three beers and a Burger lunch group ?

 

[Kittitas George]

They seem to have only gotten better since the “human element” has been substantially reduced from the process. Apparently Weed smoking union members are not conducive to tight tolerances!

Whether they are union members or not, supervision is lacking if workers are using drugs, the other thing to keep in focus is that quality control is a management function. Companies fail because of 'bean counters' wanting increased profits. Boeing is leaving the Northwest to save on wages, that will not cure the problem, the problem is in management. Boeing had the best reputation in the world for airplanes, when it's management came from the engineering dept., it was ruined when the financial department took over, cutting corners. It saved nickels and lost billions of dollars and it's great 100 year old reputation.

 

[JimT]

Whether they are union members or not, supervision is lacking if workers are using drugs, the other thing to keep in focus is that quality control is a management function. Companies fail because of 'bean counters' wanting increased profits. Boeing is leaving the Northwest to save on wages, that will not cure the problem, the problem is in management. Boeing had the best reputation in the world for airplanes, when it's management came from the engineering dept., it was ruined when the financial department took over, cutting corners. It saved nickels and lost billions of dollars and it's great 100 year old reputation.

When I was in management I always looked for employees who considered “quality control” their primary goal. The ones that excelled at that got compensated commensurately the ones that didn’t moved on. That can’t be done in a union setting. Of course in the future this will all be taken care of with the adoption of A.I. and robotics.

 

[jdh47]

Remington ushered in the demise of the Winchester Mod.70 with effective cost cutting and good advertisement. Their offering was accurate and well finished, easy to rebarrel and proved the darling of the accuracy community.
I'll get flamed for this but the extractor is a weak point and the trigger could've been improved on. Ejection works against accuracy. CNC machining was great for straight actions but finishing costs money and unions are a detriment to production. You can't time actions with labor that can't understand what they're working on between breaks.
Remington suffered from one bad management decision too many and got the same treatment they gave Winchester years ago. I hope they bring it back with some refinements that actually enhance it rather than just screw it up.