What is "Backfire" on an AR format?

[CaptainMal]

I do not own or even like to see those darn "G I Joe" rifles. Never thought they were safe and there's lots of reasons they are not wanted at rifle ranges. Seems all my friends have them and one guy conned me into letting him build me a special one. I am to use it for a priaire dog hunt and it will be accurate. Yesterday he introduced me to it.

He shot it for the first time. Kept cleaning to break it in. Shot and it seemed to be grouping nicely. I took a shot.

Holy shit! The sob shot two times in milliseconds.

Got a lecture about making the rifle "backfire". Then he played with the trigger, gave it back, I pulled the first stage, pulled the 2nd stage slowly and th th. Two shots again.

We repeated that same issue a third time and now he's pissed at me. Seems I hold the trigger back after each shot, like a "follow through". Then the rifle keeps shooting.

After more fussing and testing, the guy gave it back to me for a fourth time. I did my usual thing after listening to a lecture on recoil, trigger holds etc. One shot. It worked.

Within parts of a second I lowered the rifle to hand it to the builder and it immediately racked off THREE more shots almost instantly.

I offered the guy $100 to NOT buy it. It's unsafe. His contention is I do not know how to squeeze a trigger, hold this 223 properly and I MAKE it "backfire".

Anyone with any experience able to explain it to me?

 

[effendude]

The rifle is unsafe and needs someone competent to repair it. A properly working trigger on an AR platform shouldn't double or triple at each shot or any shot. With a properly adjusted trigger, you must release the trigger enough to allow the trigger to reset before another shot can be taken.

Scott

 

[CaptainMal]

What I thought.

He told me the trigger was some kind of special $240 Geise or Geize??? trigger with the second stage set at 2 lbs. It did feel good. No clue why it did not do that for him.

I had to leave the range early. Later in the day I stopped at his house and he told me it did it for him after I had gone. Now he wants to replace the trigger with some kind of "target" single stage trigger.

I'm not final on my rejection but now have even less confidence in rifles like that. Hope my comments don't stimulate some anti-gun response. Guess I learned it is possible to make a normal AR platform to function fully automatic, though control might be an issue.

 

[jonbearman]

The disconnector isn't doing its job catching the hammer regardless if you sqeeze and hold back or release it right away.

 

[Erik Cortina]

If your friend truly knew how to build AR's he would know that the "rapid fire" is not operator induced, something is wrong with the gun. If you buy a gun from this guy, I would then take it to a qualified gunsmith and have him go through it and make sure it is all fine.

 

[Alexander-M]

When I bought my first DPMS back in 2004 (or 2003), a Panther LR-308, I ordered it from Clark Custom Guns with a Williams Set Trigger. Unset, the trigger pull was/is about 3 lb, and when set it is about 1-1/2 lb. After several trips to the range and very pleased with the rifle's 1/2-MOA capability, it started to double- and triple-fire with a single trigger pull. Way unsafe!

I contacted Clark and then Williams, and the latter asked me to return the trigger to them, at no cost, so they could adjust it and keep it from multiple firing. I did, they did, and a few days later I received the trigger back. Since then I have fired the rifle around 2,000 rounds (just a guess) and have not had a problem. (Yes, the rifle continues to be very accurate.)

Nando

 

[Yagingaboy]

I disagree with pretty much everything said above. The term you are looking for is not "back fire" but "bump fire". It is caused when you hold the trigger in the sweet spot so that when the rifle rebounds off your shoulder from the recoil it causes you to pull the trigger again. It is a little hard to do with a 2 stage trigger or so I'm told but very simple to do with a normally functioning single stage. There are stocks made that mimic this action and can cause you to very easily be able to do this on purpose. That said, the disconnector could possibly be misadjusted so that it is not catching and the hammer is riding the bolt carrier back and firing the next shot as soon as the bolt closes. I doubt this very much because when this happens you usually go full auto. I say that because: 1. it happened to me on the last rifle I built for someone, 2. if the disconnector won't grab the hammer on the first shot it certainly won't grab it on the second, thrid, forth, twelveth, twentieth, or twenty nineth.

 

[pacificman]

I have a friend who wanted to put together a dpms semi-auto witch by the way is very accurate. We messed with the trigger to lighten it and when we went to the range that is when we found that it would fire at least two rounds every time trigger was pulled. This was on a single set trigger. All he had to do was get a new trigger (hammer and sear) and all was good...no big deal all is safe now and he has a nice shooter in my opinion. This is what he wanted... I tend to stick with my bolt rifles but I am amazed with the accuracy he is getting with this thing.
Ten years ago this kind of accuracy seemed to be unheard of in a semi-auto.

 

[wedgy]

Timney does not make their replacement trigger for the AR10/308 less than 4lbs, when I asked why they said it will bump fire.

 

[people]

I have a friend who wanted to put together a dpms semi-auto witch by the way is very accurate. We messed with the trigger to lighten it and when we went to the range that is when we found that it would fire at least two rounds every time trigger was pulled. This was on a single set trigger. All he had to do was get a new trigger (hammer and sear) and all was good...no big deal all is safe now and he has a nice shooter in my opinion. This is what he wanted... I tend to stick with my bolt rifles but I am amazed with the accuracy he is getting with this thing.
Ten years ago this kind of accuracy seemed to be unheard of in a semi-auto.

This is probably the case. Squeeze the trigger too slow and you can be in that sweet spot very easily.

 

[ratguner]

If he claims to have installed a Geissele trigger, then he screwed up the install beyond all belief.
Collect your equipment and find a qualified gunsmith!

 

[CaptainMal]

Geissele trigger - I only heard it spoken and knew nothing of it so had no clue how to spell it.

BUMP FIRE - That is what he told me. My "backfire" is wrong. I was a bit surprised and did not hear or ask about it with him clearly. Heard a fellow at Manatee one time with a "bump fire" stock. He flat out tore up any concentration you could have at the range with those automatic antics.

You guys got it now. Thanks.

Conclusion:

Some of you spoke of this happening in your experience. Some had it with two-stage triggers and another with a single-stage trigger. That tells me it does and can happen with some measure of frequency. When I add that up it spells danger above and beyond normal firearm operation.

You made my decision for me.

 

[ftrrookie]

CaptainMal, I used to think along the same lines as you. I had no use for the little black rifles. They weren't any good for anything but military use and highly inaccurate.
A guy at work had just bought one and before he could fire it his car went south. He needed money fast and made me an offer that was close to half price so I bought it thinking I could sell it for a profit.
I decided to take it to the range one day and while I was waiting for my barrel to cool on one of my target rifles I started shooting it.

Big mistake, that guns not going anywhere. It's fun to shoot and is surprisingly accurate. The only mod I've done to it since then was to install a Geissele trigger. I have never had a problem with it. The person who installed it screwed up. Take it to a qualified gunsmith, get it fixed and I guarantee you will have a great time shooting it.

 

[Yagingaboy]

Yep, once you get the engagements set right you will most likely love that gun. I have built several and believe that if you are halfway mechanically inclined and can read you can install that Geissele. They are fairly simple little works of art. I have about 7k rounds down the tube of my AR and have never had a problem beyond the first one that got me educated. In my opinion the AR 15/10 is the most adictive firearm out there. If you can afford to feed them that is.

 

[Max Power]

. . . and there's lots of reasons they are not wanted at rifle ranges. . .

I'd like to hear more about this.

 

[ftrrookie]

. . . and there's lots of reasons they are not wanted at rifle ranges. . .

I'd like to hear more about this.

I can only speak of complaints that I've heard at my local range. First, from the RO side
* shooters don't pick up their empty cases. Especially if it's steel.
* unsafe gun handling. A lot of ppl ran out and bought these things who have no experience shooting and tend to ignore posted signs about safe gun handling. For example on any given weekend I'll hear this "Sir you have to open and lock the bolt back when the line is cold". Typical answer "But I took the mag out".

On the shooter side it's usually about noise. ARs are Loud! Especially for the ppl shooting at the bench on either side of you. I add a pair of ear plugs to go along with my e-muffs when someone unpacks one.

 

[5spd]

Any more than 1 shot per trigger pull will get you into trouble if you are shooting at a range and a off duty or plain clothes cop is around and asks you to show him your class 3 for said weapon, that is considered an automatic weapon. Even though he "built" it as a semi auto no matter how the trigger is I would not want to be in those shoes if I was stopped at the range for firing more than 1 shot per trigger pull.
Its happened before with "bump" fires due to bad triggers or trigger group and a cop happened to be there shooting off duty & arrested said shooter.

 

[wolley]

It's not the rifle that isn't wanted, it's the goober that is typically attached to it that is suspect.
The only thing less desirable is the 20something new owner of an AK47 who has been playing first person shooter games in his Mom's basement for the last 10 years.
I shoot Service rifle and I typically use one of two ARs, both with Geissle triggers.
They will bump fire if you don't hold the trigger back until recoil stops.
It is called "milking the trigger".
I doubt there is anything wrong with the trigger in the rifle. Just a learning curve thing.
I also shoot M14s and Garands in competition and they too will double if you milk the trigger. Even though their triggers are like breaking a Popsicle stick.

 

[CaptainMal]

Why I dislike them is multiple and only touched by others above.

The cases fly, hit and hurt. Those that don't use some kind of catcher are most always too ignorant to even know what they are. I just had a guy tell me it was "tough shit" if I didn't like getting hit with his cases. This is NOT uncommon.

Safety issues. All too many of these rifles come to the range in the hands of flat out idiots. They never - I mean never open the bolts and figure out a way to have them open. Often they are pointed downrange with ammo in clips and even in the chamber. One time I politely asked a fireman and two off-duty policemen to please open their actions and remove magazines so I could remove my target from downrange. They got pissed. Told me I was some kind of sissy freak and went on about how tough they were. Makes me wish all ranges had range officers on duty all the time. That, unfortunately, is not the case.

I see those guns carried causally all the time with muzzles in all positions. Some of the shooters have military garb on and talk all kind of combat stuff while ripping shot after shot poorly. They are noisy and frequently shoot in a rapid-fire manner that is disruptive to reasonable shooters.

Obviously you don't do that. Many have and use those things in a responsible manner. Unfortunately, when there's trouble at the range, it's the idiots with the "G I Joe" rifles and military syndrom who often come in packs to make others miserable.

 

[Max Power]

Gosh, the last time someone pointed a gun at me at the range it was a 50 year old guy with a pump-action shotgun. He probably hadn't been playing many video games before that though. Seemed like the type of guy that goes around killing small animals because he thinks it's fun. He said the action was open, so I guess it was no problem.


I don't know if he was the one leaving shotgun shells around on the ground, but those things sure are loud. Might as well ban 'em and their kind too since we seem to be on a roll.


I agree with you about the kids with their green pants, newfangled haircuts and their complicated shoes. Though I do worry that once we've chased them off our ranges that they might end up on my lawn.