I was having good luck with 144gr Berger Hybrids, H4350, and once fired Hornady brass. Shooting groups 1/2”ish on average. My last outing groups moved out to an average of 1”ish. I changed 2 things. I switched to a FL Whidden non-bushing sizing die from a FL RCBS cheap non-bushing die. I also pulled my brass from a bag that had a mix of 3 different guns shooting all the same ammo. All the rest of my reloading process was the same. So what happened and more importantly what do I do about it?
What happened
- Thread starter leclairk
- Start date
dgeesaman
Gold $$ Contributor
I’d get out my micrometers and dial calipers and start measuring what the brass is as it’s coming out of the dies. Body diameter, base to shoulder, .200 line diameter, trim length, neck thickness, neck diameter after sizing, etc.
Same primers and brass lot?
Also where are these brass wrt to annealing? Same number of firings on the same chamber? Because neck tension is surely a variable to watch here.
Last but not least if your groups opened up on just the last outing, check your scope, consider mirage and wind, check the action screws, temp of the day vs temps when the load was working better, and other common causes for lost accuacy.
Same primers and brass lot?
Also where are these brass wrt to annealing? Same number of firings on the same chamber? Because neck tension is surely a variable to watch here.
Last but not least if your groups opened up on just the last outing, check your scope, consider mirage and wind, check the action screws, temp of the day vs temps when the load was working better, and other common causes for lost accuacy.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
“Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc” is an old Latin adage that you have to test.
Go back and see if the things you were doing before will still work, then see if what you are doing now is still worth doing.
There could be some valid reasons what you changed was not going to make you happy, but before you try to make mixed brass and a different die work, it would be best to see if just going back to what you said worked will still work.
Go back and see if the things you were doing before will still work, then see if what you are doing now is still worth doing.
There could be some valid reasons what you changed was not going to make you happy, but before you try to make mixed brass and a different die work, it would be best to see if just going back to what you said worked will still work.
The brass is probably less of problem than the change in die unless the chambers are all pretty different or different brands.
The load that worked with the rcbs die doesn't seem to work with the whidden. Get one lot of brass and find a new load with the whidden die.
^^^ This is it
I would expect the node to move slightly will any component change leaving you to test a bit on both sides of the current load to re establish, now add an additional layer of complexity with a die change as Brett mentioned not all dies are created equal.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Some things that MAY have changed by using a new die and brass fired from three different rifles:
1) Neck tension
2) Case volume
3) Cartridge base-to-shoulder
These are all quantifiable variables. My suggestion would be to get all the brass fired from your current rifle, do a fresh brass prep of all the pieces concurrently with the new die, and measure 10 to 20 pieces of brass to be sure they are all consistent. The next step would be to work the load up again. You may need to tweek something (i.e. charge weight/seating depth) if any of the above variables changed sufficiently to put the original load out of tune.
Another approach might be to try measuring any or all of the above variables from a slightly larger number of pieces of your mixed brass (i.e. 50 or so), to determine whether you might be able to simply sort the mixed brass into groups that all behaved similarly. However, there is no guarantee that one or more of the brass sort groups won't still generate poor precision if some difference in that particular sort group was what caused the load to go out of tune in the first place. For that reason, you will in all likelihood eventually end up re-processing all the brass with the new die after it has been fired from the one rifle, and then re-work the load as outlined above anyhow, so I would view that as the approach most likely to permanently solve the issue.
1) Neck tension
2) Case volume
3) Cartridge base-to-shoulder
These are all quantifiable variables. My suggestion would be to get all the brass fired from your current rifle, do a fresh brass prep of all the pieces concurrently with the new die, and measure 10 to 20 pieces of brass to be sure they are all consistent. The next step would be to work the load up again. You may need to tweek something (i.e. charge weight/seating depth) if any of the above variables changed sufficiently to put the original load out of tune.
Another approach might be to try measuring any or all of the above variables from a slightly larger number of pieces of your mixed brass (i.e. 50 or so), to determine whether you might be able to simply sort the mixed brass into groups that all behaved similarly. However, there is no guarantee that one or more of the brass sort groups won't still generate poor precision if some difference in that particular sort group was what caused the load to go out of tune in the first place. For that reason, you will in all likelihood eventually end up re-processing all the brass with the new die after it has been fired from the one rifle, and then re-work the load as outlined above anyhow, so I would view that as the approach most likely to permanently solve the issue.
If I’m using a quality die like a Whidden, should all the brass come out with the same measurements? I will measure a couple dozen pieces to see how different they are. I will also prep brass that was all fired from the same gun and run it through my new die to make sure it’s right. I suspect it’s because I have different brass shot from different guns.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Yes, but first make a small test of your ”old recipe” as a baseline.
Dies are not all created equal in the way that they apply to the necks, even if they put the shoulders back at the spec lengths. Brass can also respond with differences to a particular die setting, so for example, even putting mixed brass through your old baseline process might create a problem or it might not.
Now that you can see that both the brass and the die changes can require a retuning to your load, try not to make multiple changes at the same time.
If you get a result from any change and you think it had an effect, good or bad, you may be fooling yourself with small sample size effects and you should convince yourself with enough testing to verify what you know.
Dies are not all created equal in the way that they apply to the necks, even if they put the shoulders back at the spec lengths. Brass can also respond with differences to a particular die setting, so for example, even putting mixed brass through your old baseline process might create a problem or it might not.
Now that you can see that both the brass and the die changes can require a retuning to your load, try not to make multiple changes at the same time.
If you get a result from any change and you think it had an effect, good or bad, you may be fooling yourself with small sample size effects and you should convince yourself with enough testing to verify what you know.
Shooting the old load is not a good use of time unless he is going to go back and keep that method.
Unless the dies size the brass the same, a load that worked will not probably be the same. Each rifle behaves a little different though there some consistencies.
If you have a different die, your rifle doesn't like that powder charge in the case sized in that matter. Its essentially a new case with likely different dimensions and neck tension and so your rifle needs a new load. It should be obvious.
Unless the dies size the brass the same, a load that worked will not probably be the same. Each rifle behaves a little different though there some consistencies.
If you have a different die, your rifle doesn't like that powder charge in the case sized in that matter. Its essentially a new case with likely different dimensions and neck tension and so your rifle needs a new load. It should be obvious.
If that's the method that produced the desired result, why not go back to it?
It would also eliminate a couple variables. If he goes back to the old method, but the results are still not as desired, he knows it's something else. Hardly a waste of time.
Last edited:
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
If all groups were shot at 100 yards I doubt it’s how the die sized the brass or from it being from different rifles..... which I would never do but your neck tension. What was neck dimensions outta the rcbs and what are they outta the Whidden?
I’m guessing you have much less or more neck tension.
Wayne
I’m guessing you have much less or more neck tension.
Wayne
timeout
Silver $$ Contributor
Agreed. If it ain't broke, why fix it?
I agree, 1/2MOA is plenty good for anything but benchrest and I wouldn't mess with it.. But if he wants to use the whidden die, then going back is probably not worth the time and components. If the op doesn't have to take a half day to get to the range etc, then go ahead.
If all else is the same, it has to be due to the die and somewhat the brass. with the new die, this rifle will probably go back to 1/2moa but it needs a new load.. That is, if it went from a 1/2moa to 1moa rifle overnight.
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